Trollhattan Saab has changed!
The site you're viewing now is the original Trollhattan Saab weblog, though it's now an archive only and no new material is posted here. As of February 2009, all new material is posted at our new site - Saabs United.
Please join us at Saabs United and get your daily Saab fix from Saab sources all around the world.
The corporate speak in GM’s turnaround plan submitted to the US Congress says the following:
GM will also immediately undertake and expedite a strategic review of the Saab brand globally.
Just to make sure we’re all on the same page here, that means GM are looking to sell Saab, and maybe they’ll try and do it quickly.
It’s way too early to know what form that sale will take. Will Saab still be able to make its current and planned models under a new owner? Nobody knows, though it stands to reason that GM won’t make much money out of a sale without some sort of agreement of that nature.
What staff could Saab retain in the event of a sale?
There’s so many variables in that question that it’s almost impossible to answer. It’ll depend on who the buyer is, where their operations will be based, what salaries and conditions they could offer and the direction they’d like Saab to take. Saab lost Taras Czornyj in 2006 largely because he didn’t want to move to Germany with many of the other Saab designers. Who knows how many of the Saab designers who did make the move back then are still happy with their decisions.
Imagine you’re a Saab executive and in order to stay with the company that you might have worked for for 20+ years, you’ve got to learn to speak Mandarin. Are you going to do that or seek a job at Opel?
And what of the customers?
For me, personally, I know I’ll be watching quite closely to see who the next buyer might be. Some might cite the example of Tata/Jaguar and the subsequent success of the Jaguar XF as a good sign, but the XF was more or less set in stone when the deal was done. Jaguar’s next products will be the standard by which the deal should be judged.
Saab buyers are generally a fairly discerning type. There’ll be a lot of people watching to see how this sale takes shape. I think the retention of a Swedish base for Saab is going to be crucial in people’s acceptance of the new entity and any buyer who ignores this does so at their peril.
Personally speaking…..
My first reactions this morning were a mixture of anger and relief.
On the one hand, GM have taken from Saab a whole lot more than they’ve given to Saab. They’ve pinched engineering and design talent that they’ll be able to benefit from for years to come. Sure, they’ve sunk some money into the brand over the years, but Saab would be such a small line item on their annual budget that it’s barely a blip on their corporate radar.
If Saab can’t retain some of their talented staff under a new owner, then there’s every chance that GM have literally sucked the company dry and are now tossing them aside, a-la MG Rover a few years ago.
GM ignored Saab for a long, long time. They really only noticed them around 2003 or so when they put their foot on Saab’s throat over some costly model developments with the 9-3.
Now, just when things are looking promising again, they’re willing to toss Saab aside in a gesture as fickle as Rick Wagoner’s $1 a year salary offer. Saab’s reduction to a mere symbol annoys me to no end, especially when GM tout their new adoration for four cylinder engines, turbocharging and flex fuel technologies.
On the other hand, though, there’s a fair bit of relief in all this, too. If there’s a good buyer in the wings and if GM are smart about it, both they and Saab can benefit from the separation. A good buyer might just allow Saab to return closer to its roots, building truly engaging and surprisingly practical Swedish cars.
BRING BACK THE HATCH!!!
If GM can woo a good owner for Saab and if that new owner can get some good models into Saab’s range, then it’s going to be a real win for Saab fans. It’s fair to say that there’s a bit of a stigma in the GM name and I, for one, will be fairly happy to brush that off and regain a little of that state of independance.
Bonsoir GM
That last paragaph might make it sound like I don’t want GM to do well. That’s not correct.
I’ve been a supporter of GM’s ownership of Saab in the last few years and I don’t step back from that for a second. GM’s stake in Saab allowed the name to continue and for that, I’m thankful.
But I’m also mindful of the fact that they’ve done relatively little to advance Saab’s cause in the last 19 years. Saab have been feeding off the crumbs from GM’s table. If a new owner can come along and ensure a better future, then I’ll happily wave goodbye to GM and wish them well for the future.
Bottom Line: Aside from the work they have to do to sell Saab to a new owner, I really couldn’t give a rat’s what happens to GM as a car company, but I hope for the sake of the people they employ that they survive.
My heart is with Saab. No apologies for that.
There’s still room to worry, though
There’s a lot of IF’s in this story and that’s because the future right now is totally unknown.
GM’s review of Saab is 99.9% likely to come to a conclusion that the brand should be loosed from GM portfolio. Whether that means a sale or a shut down and mothballing isn’t clear right now.
One thing to bear in mind here: the Trollhattan plant isn’t a Saab facility, it’s a GM facility. When the Swedish government says that it will work with Saab to retain manufacturing at Trollhattan, that means they’ll work with GM to try and ensure that’s the case.
If Saab are closed down and GM can manufacture some other product there and keep the car industry dollars flowing, then the government will be quite satisfied with that outcome.
As well as closure of the brand, there’s also the prospect of a bad owner coming along. Bad ownership could take many forms and perhaps the worst of them would involve plain and simple ignorance to Saab’s brand heritage and history.
Saab are admired in some circles for their loyal core customer base, but I have a feeling that would dry up fairly quickly if Saab circa 2010 produces econobox trolleys for the budget conscious shopper.
Wait and see
This is all really fresh right now.
I tried three times to get hold of Eric Geers last night, around 10 hours or so before this plan came out. Not surprisingly, he was tied up all day. Now we know why.
Just how much information we’ll be able to get about the process is unknown at the moment, so it’s going to be a wait and see proposition.
Like you, I’m really hoping for a good outcome. Out of every hardship comes opportunity and whilst today seems like the end of Saab to many, there’s also the chance – however slim – that it could be a new and exciting beginning.
–
37 responses so far ↓
1 Joe Lobo
// Dec 3, 2008 at 11:34 am
I’ve only sat down on my desk about 1/2 hour or so ago and can’t digest all comments on the current “under review” state and all the speculation surrounding what could happen. Turbin again made a very clear point and has stressed that we need to wait and see as not everything is gloom and doom with a brand like Saab especially right now. One possible outcome though which I have seen many times in business (of course not in the magnitude of the GM and Saab mark) is for the return to the original owners. In this case will be Saab Aeroplanes and Scania Trucks in combination with the Swedish government. This could be a very strong potential outcome and one that clearly makes sense.
2 Tim in Denver
// Dec 3, 2008 at 11:42 am
I have not yet written off Saab staying with GM.
Yes, they’ve been shopping around for a buyer for Saab for months.
(sounds like they haven’t found an interested suitor in months of shopping, so, unless the deal is sweetened greatly, why would suddenly a buyer appear? JAJ even shopped for a buyer in Russia.)
GM must appear to be willing to do whatever it takes to stay solvent, so showing a ‘willingness’ to sell/change/close/reduce/cut anything and everything is probably the right thing to do in order to better their chances for a bailout.
THAT DOES NOT MEAN they will find a buyer, nor that the deal will be a good move. They just have to be willing to be open to the idea.
Saab stays with GM for now.
GM gets the money from Congress next week to survive another day.
Sales continue to tank in 2009, and GM drains all the money offered them.
End of 2009 GM is back to where it is now – weeks from going under.
And Saab?
One other thing: I don’t believe those meetings behind closed doors have determined anything yet. There are no secrets to disclose, because no one yet knows the outcome of this – including Wagoner, Pelosi et al.
We’ll just wait and see…
3 aeronaut
// Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 am
don’t say bonsoir to GM yet. if there is no buyer then SAAB may be hanging out with GM for a while longer!
Ps. Im sure they will try and hit up the Swedish gov’t for some dough first.
4 swade
// Dec 3, 2008 at 11:57 am
Tim, I’d suggest that GM’s wording – that they’d expedite the review – means that they’re looking to make a genuine example of their commitment to this turnaround. Symbolic? Probably, but it won’t cost them anything in real terms and they’ve got everything to gain.
Part of the arrangement they’re seeking is a revolving line of credit for next year. This won’t be the first time they go to govt for money. If they don’t show that they’re serious about this plan, how’s that going to go down?
It may be just a little premature, but I just don’t see Saab sticking around under the GM banner.
5 saab9x
// Dec 3, 2008 at 12:15 pm
whoever buys saab will have to start over. merely tweaking designs and technology will continue to leave saab at a competitive and fateful disadvantage.
should gm sell saab?–donno, but it’s probably better, esthetically, that saab not be dragged through bankruptcy.
6 aeronaut
// Dec 3, 2008 at 12:42 pm
over at saab history there is this quoted from GM :
“Saab was mentioned once by Rick Wagoneer, and again by Fritz Henderson (Self-Proclaimed Saab Enthusiast) in the same context. Effectively, they both indicate that Saab is not part of GM’s long-term goals, as they will be focusing on Chevy, Cadillac, GMC & Buick, as Saab is now immediately “undergoing strategic global review”.
Near the end of the question and answer period, it wasn’t until Automotive News Europe took the 2nd to last question when Saab was mentioned: The question by them included: What are your plans for the “review” of Saab? The answer by Rick Wagoneer of GM was: The review includes anything including a sale of the Saab brand. ”
Soooo Saab is not part of GM’s long term goals. This doesn’t look good because if a buyer with deep pockets isn’t found then GM might just decide to pull the plug. No good at all.
7 Scott Bachmeier
// Dec 3, 2008 at 1:07 pm
I never did pull the trigger on a Saab 9-3 SportCombi (in fact, I didn’t buy *any* new car this year…something about the economy sucking). But now I’m curious: if GM “kills” Saab, do they still have to honor the 100,000 mile powertrain warranties? That warranty was actually one strong point in the “yes” column of my shopping comparisons. Anyway, this whole GM (and Ford and Chrysler) situation is all rather mind-numbing. I really hope GM finds a proper buyer for Saab. I have long admired the brand, and many times kicked myself for not making the decision to buy one…
8 turbin
// Dec 3, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Saabs OZ cars are warrantied by GM Holden Ltd, trading as Saab Australia. So legally, as long as Holden survives, there is no reason for not honouring the warranty unless parts have dried up.
9 Nate 9-3
// Dec 3, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Swade,
How quickly can we get you to the US to talk some sense into Waggoner? We may not be able to buy SAAB, but I bet that we can all chip in for a business class flight!
10 blackturbo
// Dec 3, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Scott brings up an interesting topic: Pros/cons of taking advantage of the current deals in the US, while the future of the company could go south.
Official word on my viggen came back as a ‘total loss’ today. So I am very tempted to snag up a deal on a new saab. Things that are attractive: big discounts, long power train warranty.
Is it a bad idea wrapped in discounted clothing?
A number of people are asking, Tim, so I’ve shot off an email to SaabUSA to see if we can get an answer. It may not be iron-clad, but an indicator nonetheless. – SW
11 blackturbo
// Dec 3, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Besides the official position on how GM will treat the cars… what are the other concerns for owners?
Like, how will this effect resale value? I’m not in the market for leasing a car, but won’t that option disappear?
I wonder how fast these kinds of changes will take place.
12 Saaburban
// Dec 3, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Call it Matchmaking, blind dates or arranged marriage.
Breaking up the family, kicking Saab out of the generals house, will catapult a few events. First, GMs partner in crime; Ford, will have to do the same to please the Congressmen that holds the key to the bank. So instead of looking at Saab as a one off bargain, the whole neighburhood is up for sale. Aha, you will think, two car manufacturers one hour apart from eachother, for sale at the same time, isnt that an interesting opportunity. And then we got Opel. Why not combine GM and Fords european companies and sell them as one, to any or a combination of following buyers;
-The Volvo Group,(truck,busses,CE,penta,aero)
-The Scania group (Trucks, Busses)
-The Swedish Government
-The German Government
13 blackturbo
// Dec 3, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Also, will prices fall even further due to outcomes like selling or closing the brand?
14 Nate
// Dec 3, 2008 at 2:36 pm
A very well written piece of speculation on possible scenarios above…I too would be quite satisfied with a Saab sale to a buyer that will allow Saab to retain it’s character (or return too it). Other than keeping Saab alive (which is good nonetheless), GM really hasn’t added anything.
With a sale (or closure) I’m relatively confident that my warranty won’t become worthless; but will my local dealer close? If so, where the hell am I to go for service.
I’m also a bit disappointed that diesel autos are just beginning a resurgence here in the U.S. and now this happens; why the TTiD 9-3 never made it over here I’ll never know; i’d buy that car in a heartbeat….
P.S. Swade, 0.02c is only 2/100ths of a cent. Your opinions on these topics are worth much more than that.
15 Gunnar
// Dec 3, 2008 at 3:05 pm
GM put their “foot on Saab’s throat”? Ouch. But you’re right about GM setting it on cruise for too long.
16 Ubermich
// Dec 3, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Alright Swade, I have a question.
How much do we need to raise to buy Saab from GM? Seriously. For the Trollhattan facility, the rights to the current lineup and future cars… How much do we need? A few Billion for the sale, then a few more for ramping up production and getting new models moving?
By definition, we are an innovative people! Instead of being angry, let’s get motivated!
17 Markac
// Dec 3, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Whilst it might be romantic to think about Saab again being owned again by it’s ‘original’ owners, that would be quite unrealistic. Scania has a reluctance to have anything to do with Saab and I think it will be quite happy when Saab’s use of the griffin logo expires in a year or so.
It appears that the marriage of Saab and Scania that was engineered by the Wallenbergs in 1969 was never a truly happy one. Scania had the impression that it made the money and Saab lost it.
This was a bit unfair as Saab wasn’t always unprofitable but it is true to say that the truck division had to support the car division sometimes. Anyway Scania is now mostly VW owned so any involvement with Saab is unlikely.
Saab Aerospace/Technologies is a possibility in a consortium with the Swedish government owning 15 to 33% of Saab Cars, but I think there has to be another car manufacturer involved. I would suggest that could be Fiat. This would be quite ironic too.
Fiat missed out on buying Saab in 1989 because it immediately wanted to take a controlling interest in the company but Saab-Scania was reluctant to release it. GM somewhat miffed that it lost out on buying Jaguar (to Ford), grabbed 50% of Saab as a consolation prize. The other half of Saab was divested to Investor AB and Saab-Scania eventually became Sacnia again. GM bought the remainder of Saab in something of a last minute deal in February 2000 I think. If it didn’t do this Fiat was interested in buying the second half. As we all know, GM bought into Fiat, eventually choked on the deal and sold out again which greatly benefitted Fiat and cost GM a fortune. Supposedly Fiat then inherited the 9-5 platform that Saab intended to use in 2005 but was denied it’s use by GM.
If Fiat bought Saab and Saab doesn’t have access to Epsilon II, it could at least as an interim, use the 2005 platform that it designed for a new 9-5. Whilst you might say that Fiat has Lancia and Alfa Romeo and wouldn’t be interested in Saab, much the same situation existed in 1989 and since then Fiat has shown a continuing interest in Saab. If I had to guess, I’d say that they are still interested. If not ideal, they would make a much better owner than an Indian or Chinese one and they might be able to get Saab at a rockbottom price. All up, it would be quite ironic like I said.
18 Saaburban
// Dec 3, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Maybe to put a value added spin to the news abt saab sales.
The first offer to take over the brand should be from the enthusiasts,
couldnt think of a better marketing stunt. If a german solar
power firm put a bid on opel, everything is possible!
Saab is an enthusiasts brand, then let the Enthusiasts show the
world, why saab matters, and what the saab brand make people do.
Move your Mind, or a Mindless Move might in the end show the true
value.
19 1985 Gripen
// Dec 3, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Worst-case scenario: Saab gets shuttered altogether like Oldsmobile or MG Rover. Best case scenario: Proton buys Saab and merges Saab and Lotus engineering, keeping manufacturing and design in Sweden and Britain. We finally see a version of the Aero-X with Lotus suspension!
Maybe we’ll see SVC yet! Saab (rather than GM) owns the patents on that technology, I believe.
More and more every day I want to buy that 1993 900 Turbo Commemorative Edition of my dreams…
20 Mats
// Dec 3, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Saaburban,
-The Volvo Group,(truck,busses,CE,penta,aero) Has already said “no Thankyou” to buying Volvo Cars why would they want Saab, Opel and Ford too?
-The Scania group (Trucks, Busses) Is owned by VW which in turn in owned by Porsche, unlikely buyer.
-The German Government, any stateowned company that isn’t dealing with pute neccesities, electric, power, roads, etc is a bad idea.
-The Swedish Government. See above, + dear god I hope not…
21 Markac
// Dec 3, 2008 at 4:11 pm
The best thing to remember is that shuttering Saab will cost money. Selling Saab will bring in some money even if that’s only a small return on the original investment.
22 Jörgen Trued
// Dec 3, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Gripen 1985: SVC is a dead project trust me. It aint gonna happen!
The mayor of Trollhättan was quite optimistic a few minutes ago on swedish public radio.
CEO Johnsson has not yet gone public here, will be interesting to hear him.
23 Jörgen Trued
// Dec 3, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Johnsson said in radio just now that 9-5 is just about ready to launch as
a new flagship! He was guite positive
Written while Driving turbo x!
24 Snotfjold
// Dec 3, 2008 at 6:03 pm
In GM speak “Global” usually means North America, perhaps because the can see both Canada and the US from the Ren Cen. In this case maybe they have consulted a Dictionary.
I just wonder how they are going to to extricate Saab from the rest of GME’s operations, so much is interlinked. Some of the “Opel” development is done solely in Sweden by Swedish engineers, some of the “Saab” work is done solely in Germany.
I believe Saab is being set up as the sacrifial lamb to please an ignorant senate. This is going to be tough for us that believe in the brand.
25 Daniel B
// Dec 3, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Hmmm one starts to wonder…..
What´s the price for Saab….?
26 Markac
// Dec 3, 2008 at 6:08 pm
If the new 9-5 is about ready to be launched it needs to serve as a “Jaguar XF” for Saab, but it will still have to be OEM supplied from Opel to Saab’s new owners.
27 Martin N
// Dec 3, 2008 at 6:13 pm
“-The Scania group (Trucks, Busses) Is owned by VW which in turn in owned by Porsche, unlikely buyer.”
Yes, and for many years Saab-Scania’s main task was to build the best trucks on the planet just to see all the money earned bleed into a Saab to keep it afloat. They were quite happy to see Saab leave for GM.
28 AMS
// Dec 3, 2008 at 6:19 pm
I remember the GM-event at Detroit Show this january, almost a year ago.
Rick Wagoner had two cars to show, and then spoke about ethanol (a “Saab-thing”, for sure). One of those two cars was the 9-4X Concept. Less than 12 months ago, and now they want sell Saab? Does not make sense in my world … They will keep Saab!
Cheers!
29 ctm
// Dec 3, 2008 at 6:35 pm
OK, so what exactly are GMs plans for the future? After reading through the whole “Plan” I still don’t get it.
The other day, JAJ said that despite the lack of sale Saab in the US were basically a profitable business. That means that it can’t be far from being profitable in the Europe. So from where does the billions of dollar GM bleed come from? Saab?
Why sell it now when they have a brand new model in final testing, and are ready to release pictures of another brand new model? And all this work have been done together with other brands as an integrated part of GM after 15 years of not being that integrated to GM?
Sell the brand and keep Trollhättan plant? For what? Building Opel models? Why? Opel needs to be built in low cost countries to compete. They don’t need the Swedish mojo. And without Saab manufacturing in Germany, I don’t think Opel or the unions like the idea of closing down capacity in Germany to save Trollhättan. Not gonna happen. Also, no need for a 100,000+ factory to build 10,000 Opels for the Swedish market.
Sell the brand and keep the R&D in Trollhättan? Do they really think they can have all those engineers working for other GM products when there is no Saab? Forget it. They will move on to Volvo or just do something else. Major brain-drain for GM here. And if I remember correctly, there were global centers for R&D in safety, infotainment/telemetry, production processes, turbo charging, manual gearboxes… Sounds like something GM really really need if they wanna sell cars to outside the trail trash and hillbilly segment.
Keep the brand, sell the Trollhättan assets, and move everything to Germany? Risky. Again, they will lose a lot of engineers, Saab will definitely not be Swedish anymore, and hence there is no point having the brand.
From time to time, I wondered what was going on inside GM HQ. No I really wonder if there are any true business people and visionaries at all in command, or it’s just 100% bean counters thinking they can run an auto industry with an Excel sheet…
30 ctm
// Dec 3, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Johnsson said in radio just now that 9-5 is just about ready to launch as
a new flagship! He was guite positive
Written while Driving turbo x!
Weird world indeed…
31 Mats
// Dec 3, 2008 at 6:54 pm
“The other day, JAJ said that despite the lack of sale Saab in the US were basically a profitable business. That means that it can’t be far from being profitable in the Europe. So from where does the billions of dollar GM bleed come from? Saab”
Sure, Saab is costing GM money, but it’s a mere trickle in the green flood that’s pouring of GM’s arteries each day…
I think it’s the costs of the UAW healthcare and pensions that are killing GM, because the money that should have gone to that have probably been speculated with and lost in the “money market”.
The american government should probably need to take that cost off GM’s shoulders, then they might survive longer than 2012.
32 Arild
// Dec 3, 2008 at 7:00 pm
The Saab and GM managers start to sound like Comical Ali when they talk about Saabs bright future and the imminent release of the 9-5 and the 9-4x…
33 Grumpy
// Dec 3, 2008 at 7:01 pm
I wonder if this means they are going to pour more money in to Cadillac in Europe now. They need to compensate for a lot of sales, about 60,000 vehicles, from Saab. That will cost quite a bit of money, first on failed campaigns and special models for Cadillac and then of course the lost opportunity of not being able to sell Saabs.
However, lost opportunity has never been a factor in decisions concerning Saab in the past so why should it be any different this time.
34 Jörgen Trued
// Dec 3, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Johnsson was interviewed by swedish radio. 30 minutes ago.
On the question “will saab be sold to another Car Company?” he was that microsecond hesitant and said “there are many interested companies in the Automotive sector both in europe and elsewhere” .
Listening to what I as a native could read between the lines is this.
My interpetation; vsl (austrian engine developer who run old GM powertrain), TWR, pininfarina, or any other skilled high-tech Development companies. There are quite as few big players in europe who makes important stuff cars even if they are not as car brand.
And that keeping Saab as a brand.
A Car analyst at a university had the idea that Saab & Opel could build a new Company together with support from the two governments.
35 Philip J
// Dec 3, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Just seen this comment om http://www.gminsidenews.com, don’t know how much inside news it is, but to sell SAAB with out its engineering side, is rather bad news in respect to the future of SAAB.
“Our sources have said that if and when a sale of the Saab division occurs, it would include the Trollhattan, Sweden assembly plant that currently builds the Saab 9-3 and Cadillac BLS (a European-only model). Although details such as this could change depending on the situation, GM does not intend on selling off Saab’s engineering side, which has been responsible for several safety advancements and turbocharged engine development for all of GM.”
36 Grumpy
// Dec 3, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Philip J, interesting. If it was me buying Saab, I’d set up a new engineering office in Trollhättan and then get the disillusioned Saab engineers to move from GM.
This sounds like GM eating the cake and but still having it, or how does that old proverb go.
37 craig
// Dec 4, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Hi All,
Haven’t been to this site for about 8 months but good to see you’re all still kickin’.
I have to say that my sentiments at the news were similar to swades. But, you know SAAB may end up coming out of this better than GM. SAAB learns, GM doesn’t.
At least you can say that SAAB have moved with the times or been a force for it. GM on the other hand? Call me crazy but i think SAAB will look more the winner long term.
Cheers,