I would just like to set one point right. Yes import duties are due when vehicles are imported into Europ but these can be reclaimed or offset by registered companies similar to VAT. Commercially imported vehicles are therefore not disadvantaged in Europe!

Saab is not a mess. It has never been a mess, and today it’s close to the best it’s ever been. But it’s not there yet, it’s close, and unfortunately the economic downturn came at the worst possible time. Saab only needs a little bit more time. When those new models come out Saab will achieve profits and beyond. The company is at a very crucial time in its history, and it’s one that is very exciting.

Not much land is used today to grow crops that are turned into ethanol. A small portion of land in Brazil supplies all of Scandinavia and then some (presumably supplies Brazil’s own requirements).

What the nay-sayers are missing:
1. The price of grain was at an all-time low, then the oil price soared and the price of grain followed
2. Poor peasants in third-world countries cannot make a living harvesting grain
3. The increase in prices of food have helped farmers in e.g. Afghanistan to start food production again (rather than grow opium)
4. Compare the amount of land used to grow tulips with the amount of land used to grow sugar…
5. Scandinavia can utilize (much) more timber to produce ethanol… Only problem is: Sugar is less expensive. But it is feasible. (at the moment our forrests are growing dangerously dense, because the price of timber is too low to make much use of it)

There are so many things wrong in this world. Supplying ethanol to keep the oil price low is not one of them. This actually helps the food production in the world.

And in the end… If we continue increasing the population on this planet… Then we might end up with 10 times the population, and then, when disaster strikes, many more people will die as a consequence. We should focus more on putting a cap on population growth. Increasing the amount of cheap food is the wrong way to go. (i.e. what is worse: 1000 dead now, or one million dead ten years down the road? Small contained disaster presently, or a huge global disaster in the future?)

Personally, I think Saab could learn something from Apple in terms of how to market quality design to people who like to think of themselves as having more taste than the average bear. Saabs should be beautiful cars, beautifully driven.

Incidentally, I can see lots of car makers copying the Skoda Superb idea of a combined hatch/saloon boot (trunk) so the choice of a Saab hatch could become moot.

\by the wy, the European Commission has proposed €5bn funding for the euopean car sector as part of a €130bn stimulus package

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1126/breaking8.htm

Has anyone heard whether any of this will find its way to Saab?

The problems with the Detroit 3 lie with BOTH the incompetent management and the idiotic UAW. Obviously there are a plethora of mistakes to choose from with the execs, but it’s also well known that it simply costs more to produce a vehicle when you’re GM than when you are Toyota. Basically a car of the same price will be have $2,000 less stuff due to the healthcare and pension costs, etc. So buy a GM car identical in price to a Japanese car, and it will suck more to the tune of a couple grand worth of features. That’s just how it is- there’s little to change the fact that GM is known for being a healthcare company that makes cars on the side.

And Eggs is right- the purpose of tariffs is to increase the prices of goods coming into that country, in order to benefit those in that country. European countries have them for auto imports, and this adds to the price of any other car coming in. It’s that simple- so it’s not fair to say they’re all equal for the virtue of all being taxed highly. VAT taxes, etc., are different from import tariffs.

I think that IF GM can make it out of this mess and SAAB’s new lineup (2012ish) still isn’t doing well, then it might deserve that criticism. Right now it hasn’t had a fair chance to compete. It’s not fair to talk them down when they haven’t been given the tools, funding, etc. to compete with the others. At this point in time I find it incredibly difficult to put the blame on anyone but the parent company. So if you want to be pissed at someone it should be GM dude! Not SAAB. Unless you call the 9-7, 9-2, and 11 year old 9-5 an honest effort.

The new cars look like they have a lot of potential. I just hope we get to see them.

As van god los mentioned there are is no protectionism for cars in Europe, it does not matter if a vehicle is produced domestically or imported the duties and taxes are the always the same, high!

What is different is the culture, and one would expect the local manufacturers to be more attune to the local culture and markets and this is where the Detroit 3 seem to have fallen down in the US.

Here in Europe both Ford and GM have gone through cycles of more or less independence (my father worked for Ford in England and Germany and I did my apprenticeship with Ford in the UK). But on the whole Ford of Europe appear to have normally had a bit more of a voice within their organisation then their counterparts at Opel. Ford has always been a more integrated than GM with its multiple brands. If all the Detriot 3 survive (and I believe they will, one way or another) then I think Ford will come out best.

As far as GM and Ford are very comparable I think Volvo and Saab are 2 completely different animals these days. Volvo have a much broader range than Saab and have, at least here in Europe, changed their image to also have a slightly wider acceptance. Saab with only 2 models, are very much a small niche company. From a European point of view I think Ford did a very good job with all the brands they have been involved with, both Jaguar and Land Rover are much more efficient and produce far higher quality than they did before they joined the Ford fold and Aston-Martin bloomed under Fords wing. It is a pity that mistakes made on the US market have led to the break up of the group here in Europe.

The UAW problem you mention was brought on by the US carmakers themselves, again by their shortsightedness, here in Europe we also have strong labour representation but by keeping the labour representatives closely informed of the plans and situation of the companies there is, I believe, a bit more give and take.

The problem of the Detriot 3 is not the workers or the unions but the shortsightedness and inflexibility of the management and company organisations.

As to the future of Saab, I am afraid that I am not very hopeful, I think GM maybe split into associated but independent regional companies and that Saab will disappear.

The 1.9Tid and TTid are already in order with the Euro IV regulation (since a few years). From september 2009 on, the 1.9 Tid en TTid will also have to meet the Euro V standards.

You know as well as I that it is very hard/impossible to say wether a modern diesel engine is better or worse then a modern gasoline engine. Let’s just say that they are different type of engines with their own advantages and disadvantages.

But the fact is that in Europe, (at least !) 50% of the cars like the 9-3(x) are sold as diesels. In Belgium e.g., the diesels will probably be 90% of the sales of that type of car. Not offering a diesel in such a car is, from an economic point of view, plain and simpel idiocy.

Ethanol is only popular in Scandinavia. In the rest of the world, people are very sceptic with regard to ethanol as a fuel. If people worldwide would start using ethanol as a fuel, there wouldn’t be any ground left to cultivate food …

@Eggsngrits :

Car prices in Europe are not higher because of protectionism (high tariffs and quotas) but (mostly) because of taxes. Those taxes are as high for imported cars as for Europe made cars.

Hey, in Europe American cars in general are cheaper then the European and Japanese competition so the price isn’t really an issue. Brand image and quality are.

The reason why american cars, contrary to e.g. Japanese or Korean cars, don’t sell in Europe is the same as why american cars since the 80′s are loosing market share even in the USA. Because they’re crap.

Or to put it mildly, the engines are not up to date, too big and consume way to much fuel, sometimes they even still have 4 or 5 speed-automatic transmissions (VW now uses 7-speed dubble clutch automatic transmissions which have better fuel economy and accelarations then the manual gear boxes !), the interior plastics suck big time, the quality of the assembly is horrible, when you drive them, it feels like a boat, …

OK, OK, they’re are improving but they’re are still far away from being up par.