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	<title>Comments on: GM and Chrysler sitting in a tree?</title>
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	<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html</link>
	<description>Saab 9-1, 9-3, 9-4x, 9-5, 9-7x News</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 06:34:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Mats</title>
		<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html#comment-54083</link>
		<dc:creator>Mats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 05:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trollhattansaab.net/?p=8909#comment-54083</guid>
		<description>Hmmmm...GM+Chrysler....

It&#039;s something like this: &quot;Hmmm, I&#039;m bleeding from my hand, how do I fix that? I know!, I&#039;ll chop my head off!! *ka-tchunk*&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmmm&#8230;GM+Chrysler&#8230;.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s something like this: &#8220;Hmmm, I&#8217;m bleeding from my hand, how do I fix that? I know!, I&#8217;ll chop my head off!! *ka-tchunk*&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Markac</title>
		<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html#comment-54071</link>
		<dc:creator>Markac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trollhattansaab.net/?p=8909#comment-54071</guid>
		<description>Johan:  I know the situation is somewhat more complex than the Ford/Jaguar one, but not impossible.  The NG900 was originally designed for a different platform to the composite GM one it ended up being built on.  Had things gone differently it might have ended up on a Fiat platform.
I am just saying a new owner may decide to cooperate with GM on models beyond the next 9-5 or it may decide to go it&#039;s own way and develop new platforms or use existing ones from it&#039;s own stable.

When the NG900 was produced it (unfortunately) used a lot of carry over GM platform parts which were really not up task for a premium model and Saab had to try and do it&#039;s best with them.  Whoever buys Saab would have to incorporate their own platforms and engines into future models. Hopefully they would do a better job than GM.  Saab by itself is not a viable entity and whilst people might dream, whoever buys it will have to incorporate into their own lineup of brands.  Hopefuly they could do a better job than GM.  GM&#039;s performance with Saab this decade in particular, has been quite appalling..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johan:  I know the situation is somewhat more complex than the Ford/Jaguar one, but not impossible.  The NG900 was originally designed for a different platform to the composite GM one it ended up being built on.  Had things gone differently it might have ended up on a Fiat platform.<br />
I am just saying a new owner may decide to cooperate with GM on models beyond the next 9-5 or it may decide to go it&#8217;s own way and develop new platforms or use existing ones from it&#8217;s own stable.</p>
<p>When the NG900 was produced it (unfortunately) used a lot of carry over GM platform parts which were really not up task for a premium model and Saab had to try and do it&#8217;s best with them.  Whoever buys Saab would have to incorporate their own platforms and engines into future models. Hopefully they would do a better job than GM.  Saab by itself is not a viable entity and whilst people might dream, whoever buys it will have to incorporate into their own lineup of brands.  Hopefuly they could do a better job than GM.  GM&#8217;s performance with Saab this decade in particular, has been quite appalling..</p>
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		<title>By: Johan</title>
		<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html#comment-54061</link>
		<dc:creator>Johan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trollhattansaab.net/?p=8909#comment-54061</guid>
		<description>1985 Gripen: Ford owns a minority stake in Mazda and will most likely sell of some of their shares. A likely buyer is Mazda themself. Both Ford and Mazda still are in need of their co-operation though, so it&#039;s unlikely they sell off all of it.

Jeep could possibly replace Hummer in GM&#039;s portfolio, but Viper is more or less useless. It&#039;s basicly a very poor selling Corvette. I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if Viper was sold off.

GM is most likely also interrested to get rid of their light trucks business, but doesn&#039;t seem to be able to get the amount of money they want for it.

Markac: I don&#039;t think you really realise the situation here. Saab perform important tasks for GM, and all Saab cars are based on GM&#039;s jointly developed global platforms, engines and transmissions. Not only that, much development work is actually done by GM in Germany. The situation is not comparable with Jaguar as the companies in Premier Auto Group was much more independant from Ford than Saab is from GM. Sure, a buyer of Saab could possibly get the rights to use the current parts, but in the long term they basicly have to restart from scratch, building a new development center, new engines, platforms and so on. GM also would be forced to move development done at Saab back to GM, or at least separate that part of Saab to GM. It would be a very messy situation that most likely GM nor Saab would benefit from.

A much more likely situation is that GM increase co-operation between their different brands and makes Saab more &#039;premium&#039; so that it can take up competition with for instance Audi, while Opel is moved upmarket to be able to compete more directly with VW. This also makes some more room for Chevrolet at the bottom, in the low price segment. Opels for the North American market will be rebranded as Saturn. Buick will most likely be placed between Saturn/Opel and Saab on the markets which it is sold at.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1985 Gripen: Ford owns a minority stake in Mazda and will most likely sell of some of their shares. A likely buyer is Mazda themself. Both Ford and Mazda still are in need of their co-operation though, so it&#8217;s unlikely they sell off all of it.</p>
<p>Jeep could possibly replace Hummer in GM&#8217;s portfolio, but Viper is more or less useless. It&#8217;s basicly a very poor selling Corvette. I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if Viper was sold off.</p>
<p>GM is most likely also interrested to get rid of their light trucks business, but doesn&#8217;t seem to be able to get the amount of money they want for it.</p>
<p>Markac: I don&#8217;t think you really realise the situation here. Saab perform important tasks for GM, and all Saab cars are based on GM&#8217;s jointly developed global platforms, engines and transmissions. Not only that, much development work is actually done by GM in Germany. The situation is not comparable with Jaguar as the companies in Premier Auto Group was much more independant from Ford than Saab is from GM. Sure, a buyer of Saab could possibly get the rights to use the current parts, but in the long term they basicly have to restart from scratch, building a new development center, new engines, platforms and so on. GM also would be forced to move development done at Saab back to GM, or at least separate that part of Saab to GM. It would be a very messy situation that most likely GM nor Saab would benefit from.</p>
<p>A much more likely situation is that GM increase co-operation between their different brands and makes Saab more &#8216;premium&#8217; so that it can take up competition with for instance Audi, while Opel is moved upmarket to be able to compete more directly with VW. This also makes some more room for Chevrolet at the bottom, in the low price segment. Opels for the North American market will be rebranded as Saturn. Buick will most likely be placed between Saturn/Opel and Saab on the markets which it is sold at.</p>
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		<title>By: Tompa</title>
		<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html#comment-54055</link>
		<dc:creator>Tompa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trollhattansaab.net/?p=8909#comment-54055</guid>
		<description>I know this might sound stupid.. But why not team up with Fiat? Saab and Fiat has worked with eachother just fine in the past. So why not now? Just think of bases for a future Aero X! No.. Not the Panda ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this might sound stupid.. But why not team up with Fiat? Saab and Fiat has worked with eachother just fine in the past. So why not now? Just think of bases for a future Aero X! No.. Not the Panda <img src='http://www.trollhattansaab.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html#comment-54041</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 04:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trollhattansaab.net/?p=8909#comment-54041</guid>
		<description>Regardless of whether or not it makes sense from a business standpoint...General Mopar?  Scary.

Actually, I wish GM owned Jeep, but besides that...Viper? Gone.  Challenger? Gone.  That&#039;s enough to make me hope this never happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regardless of whether or not it makes sense from a business standpoint&#8230;General Mopar?  Scary.</p>
<p>Actually, I wish GM owned Jeep, but besides that&#8230;Viper? Gone.  Challenger? Gone.  That&#8217;s enough to make me hope this never happens.</p>
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		<title>By: Kroum</title>
		<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html#comment-54040</link>
		<dc:creator>Kroum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 03:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trollhattansaab.net/?p=8909#comment-54040</guid>
		<description>According to some newer reports, GM may trade their 49% stake in GMAC to Cerberus in exchange for Chrysler. Cerberus already owns 51% of GMAC, and reports suggest both parties are looking to offload their non-core businesses quick.

But I still fail to see much positives from such a move. Economies of scale would provide for some measurable savings (metals, parts, etc.), but the dealer bloat and debt burden may be overwhelming. We know very little about Chrysler since it went private.

My best guess is GM is looking to divest GMAC, deeply vested into the subprime crisis. If they end up picking Chrysler, they will likely close down the brand itself, keep Jeep, though I am not quite sure what they&#039;d do with Dodge. To top it all off, there were reports GM had also approached Ford, although the latter declined.

Is Saab safe? I think it is, but I also hold the view that GM will look into selling the brand once the proper lineup has been introduced. It&#039;s already been discussed here at length, but all the latest moves point to that. It is the potential buyers of the brand that worry me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to some newer reports, GM may trade their 49% stake in GMAC to Cerberus in exchange for Chrysler. Cerberus already owns 51% of GMAC, and reports suggest both parties are looking to offload their non-core businesses quick.</p>
<p>But I still fail to see much positives from such a move. Economies of scale would provide for some measurable savings (metals, parts, etc.), but the dealer bloat and debt burden may be overwhelming. We know very little about Chrysler since it went private.</p>
<p>My best guess is GM is looking to divest GMAC, deeply vested into the subprime crisis. If they end up picking Chrysler, they will likely close down the brand itself, keep Jeep, though I am not quite sure what they&#8217;d do with Dodge. To top it all off, there were reports GM had also approached Ford, although the latter declined.</p>
<p>Is Saab safe? I think it is, but I also hold the view that GM will look into selling the brand once the proper lineup has been introduced. It&#8217;s already been discussed here at length, but all the latest moves point to that. It is the potential buyers of the brand that worry me.</p>
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		<title>By: Markac</title>
		<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html#comment-54039</link>
		<dc:creator>Markac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 01:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trollhattansaab.net/?p=8909#comment-54039</guid>
		<description>There seems little point in two debt ridden companies merging to form an even bigger debt ridden company and it would do no good for Saab.  GM already has too many brands and adding any more would make Saab&#039;s position even worse.  GM can sell Saab.  It has learned most of what it wants from Saab in the past 18 years and if it thinks there are still any valuable people left at Saab. it would make them very lucrative offers to stay with GM if it was to dispose of the brand.

I proposed the following scenario earlier in the year and now it seems even more likely to happen.  GM can use the new 9-5 as a brokering chip to sell Saab.  It could supply the new owner cars built by Opel in Germany for a five year contract.  The new owner would get the Trollhattan plant and maybe some assistance with infrastructure for a new 9-3 and a possible 9-1, or it may have to (or want to) go it alone. The 9-4x may or may not factor into the deal.  GM could supply it to the new owner from Mexico or simply decide to re-badge it as a Buick or something.  This is all quite possible as it is much the same deal that Ford did with the XM to sell off Jaguar.  I&#039;m sure the bean counters at GM have already looked at this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems little point in two debt ridden companies merging to form an even bigger debt ridden company and it would do no good for Saab.  GM already has too many brands and adding any more would make Saab&#8217;s position even worse.  GM can sell Saab.  It has learned most of what it wants from Saab in the past 18 years and if it thinks there are still any valuable people left at Saab. it would make them very lucrative offers to stay with GM if it was to dispose of the brand.</p>
<p>I proposed the following scenario earlier in the year and now it seems even more likely to happen.  GM can use the new 9-5 as a brokering chip to sell Saab.  It could supply the new owner cars built by Opel in Germany for a five year contract.  The new owner would get the Trollhattan plant and maybe some assistance with infrastructure for a new 9-3 and a possible 9-1, or it may have to (or want to) go it alone. The 9-4x may or may not factor into the deal.  GM could supply it to the new owner from Mexico or simply decide to re-badge it as a Buick or something.  This is all quite possible as it is much the same deal that Ford did with the XM to sell off Jaguar.  I&#8217;m sure the bean counters at GM have already looked at this.</p>
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		<title>By: 1985 Gripen</title>
		<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html#comment-54036</link>
		<dc:creator>1985 Gripen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 01:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trollhattansaab.net/?p=8909#comment-54036</guid>
		<description>I have read a huge percentage of Chrysler vehicles end up in fleets. If you take fleet sales out of the figures the sales numbers are even more abysmal.

Adam: doesn&#039;t Ford only own a portion of Mazda (a majority stake)? Maybe they can sell to Toyota like GM sold their stake in Subaru to them.

From what I remember of the Cerebrus deal for Chrysler, Daimler basically PAID Cerebrus to take them off their hands. I would imagine that if there were a suitor for Chrysler (and I don&#039;t see why there would be, with only the Jeep and Dodge Viper being really desirable) that they could have it pretty cheaply. How much you got in your wallet? That should probably be enough. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have read a huge percentage of Chrysler vehicles end up in fleets. If you take fleet sales out of the figures the sales numbers are even more abysmal.</p>
<p>Adam: doesn&#8217;t Ford only own a portion of Mazda (a majority stake)? Maybe they can sell to Toyota like GM sold their stake in Subaru to them.</p>
<p>From what I remember of the Cerebrus deal for Chrysler, Daimler basically PAID Cerebrus to take them off their hands. I would imagine that if there were a suitor for Chrysler (and I don&#8217;t see why there would be, with only the Jeep and Dodge Viper being really desirable) that they could have it pretty cheaply. How much you got in your wallet? That should probably be enough. <img src='http://www.trollhattansaab.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html#comment-54035</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 01:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trollhattansaab.net/?p=8909#comment-54035</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see how this can make any sense.  You take two big entities losing big money and make one gigantic entity losing gigantic sums of money.  

They have the same problems of legacy costs and too many dealers.  It&#039;s not like they compliment each other in any way.  I think what would make the most sense would be for Cerebrus to sell Jeep and Viper to Ford and go out of business.

The biggest auto news of today is Ford is looking at selling off Mazda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see how this can make any sense.  You take two big entities losing big money and make one gigantic entity losing gigantic sums of money.  </p>
<p>They have the same problems of legacy costs and too many dealers.  It&#8217;s not like they compliment each other in any way.  I think what would make the most sense would be for Cerebrus to sell Jeep and Viper to Ford and go out of business.</p>
<p>The biggest auto news of today is Ford is looking at selling off Mazda.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Abbott</title>
		<link>http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2008/10/gm-and-chrysler-sitting-in-a-tree.html#comment-54033</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Abbott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 23:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trollhattansaab.net/?p=8909#comment-54033</guid>
		<description>Supposedly Chrysler does have some cash, $11 billion or so.  Whether Cerebus is willing to part with that cash for the privilege of getting out the car business is another question entirely.  

If it happens, my guess is that GM keeps only Jeep out of the deal, and shutters the rest.  There is zero brand equity left in Dodge, and not very much at all in Chrysler itself.  Having said that, my brother bought a brand new 300 a couple of years ago with a Hemi, and loves it dearly.  Supposedly there&#039;s a lot of E class underneath the 300, and I&#039;d imagine Chrysler is in a bit of a pickle developing the successor to the 300 without having anymore access to Mercedes technology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Supposedly Chrysler does have some cash, $11 billion or so.  Whether Cerebus is willing to part with that cash for the privilege of getting out the car business is another question entirely.  </p>
<p>If it happens, my guess is that GM keeps only Jeep out of the deal, and shutters the rest.  There is zero brand equity left in Dodge, and not very much at all in Chrysler itself.  Having said that, my brother bought a brand new 300 a couple of years ago with a Hemi, and loves it dearly.  Supposedly there&#8217;s a lot of E class underneath the 300, and I&#8217;d imagine Chrysler is in a bit of a pickle developing the successor to the 300 without having anymore access to Mercedes technology.</p>
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