Saab improves in JD quality study (which sucks, by the way)
JD Power vehicle dependability ratings make the news.
They also suck, but they still make the news.
They’ve published their 2008 report today an there’s mixed news in there for Saab. As a primer for those who aren’t familiar, the vehicle dependability ratings measure the number of problems experienced by owners during their first three years of ownership. So in 2008, they’re using responses from the original owners of 2005 vehicles who have had their cars for the entire three years.
The study sucks because the criteria measured is a little fruity, rating a failed gearbox around the same as a CD player that the owner doesn’t rate soo good. For example, from JD’s own website:
The problems include:
1. Excessive wind noise
2. Noisy brakes
3. Vehicle pulling to the left or right
4. Issues with the instrument panel/dashboard
5. Excessive window fogging
Where’s the objectivity? If something breaks, then it breaks and you can measure it. The criteria mentioned above, and others I’m sure, are up to the customer’s judgement. What’s to say that one customer will find a car’s window fogging to be acceptable and another will find it to be excessive? Same with wind noise - what if one customer is partially deaf?
Apples with apples? I think not. But it still makes the news.
The good news is that Saab’s number of problems-per-100-vehicles fell from the 319 measured in 2007 (using 2004 model vehicles), down to 256 in 2008. That 63 point improvement for Saab was actually the biggest single year improvement out of all brands represented!
That’s good news, but to put it in perspective, the industry average was 206 problems, so Saab still has a ways to go in order to catch up.
61% of the field recorded an improvement in their vehicle ratings for this year. The badges that recorded the biggest declines in ratings were Subaru, Jeep and Scion.
The full results are in the graphic below. Click to enlarge.
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This reminds me of that issues Porsche had with customers complaining about the accumulator brakes pad/rotor dust on the wheels which negatively impacted their JDP score.
The average 9-3SS probably has between 3 and 12 peeling trim complaints through the warranty period. You do the math.
Then add squeaks and rattles.
And (no offense, I’m one too) Saab drivers are some of the pickiest (is that a word?) people out there. Most drivers would probably not complain about some of the rattles we complain about, but we have certain expectations from a car we paid this much money for. I don’t think it’s unreasonable, but I do think it gives some of the other brands a break.
Ubermich, you are right on the money.
Another problem with JD Power is that they implicitly associate reliability with durability.
In my experience, 10 year old Saabs are in way better shape than almost any other brand at the same age: the bodies aren’t rusted, the seats are still good, the suspension hasn’t fallen apart, emissions are still below the measurable limit, brake and fuel lines are still solid, etc, etc.
While it would be good if Saab could improve on their small issues, however there is nothing wrong with the big picture. I wouldn’t trade my seized headlight wiper arms for the truckload of issues that can be found in an old Mercedes or Acura.
To continue with what Ubermich wrote, my mechanic compares Japanese cars with blue jeans: no one is disappointed when their Corolla starts to look torn-up and frayed. It’s all part of the package. European cars are more like designer clothes; owners are much more likely to complain if they find any imperfection at all.
!00% agreeing on the suckyness of JD Power.
As a photograph enthusiast, I also frequent various PhotoG boards and the latest survay for Digital SLRs are out as well - and surprise, Canon = 1, Nikon = 3, Pentax, my choosen brand is down there at 5 (last pos).
However in real life if you ever talk to Pentax users they have very high praise for their gear. Almost every other K mount user I talk to feel that way, so where the hell did these negative rating come from?
We are having exactly the same discussion on my Pentax board as here.
Ubermich and Bernard are indeed right on the money. This, however, should be no excuse, and Saab needs to invest the necessary resources and ensure there are no squeaks and rattles and peeling interior bits. It is the price you have to pay for suffessfully competing in the premium segment - you can see the other luxury brands (except Land Rover) have scored much better. And I bet eliminating such minor issues would cause a huge lift of the brand mage overall.
Pre- and post-sale experience with both the dealer and the brand in general is also an item of huge importance. I think this is part of why BMW and Lexus ranked so high.
I agree Kroum. If Cadillac can score near the top, then Saab should also be able to.
One question I have is could the poor Saab rating be attributed to the closing of several Saab dealerships in the USA? You know, a problem would be a lot worse if you have to bring your car to a different dealership.
I am continually baffled by these ratings. I had an 03 9-3 SS, supposedly the worst car sold in America. I had very few issues with it. I use the term issues as they were nothing major: a headlight went out, the sensor on my sunroof needed replacing, my keys needed to be re-coded. The biggest problem I had was the battery went bad after about 3 years. I loved this one so much that I bought an 07 9-3 Convertible. It has been even better. Nothing wrong in the first year and only last week I had a head light out. It has 20000 miles.
Same with my Forester. It is an 04 with 90000 miles and the only repair was a broken cable in the sunroof.
I have several friends with BMW’s who have had so many problems. Three of them will not buy another and two of them even had theirs replaced because they could not be fixed! They were the new 7-Series and an X5. Who does BMW sleep with to get this rating???
David - It’s partially attributed to the free scheduled maintenance BMW gives.
This is slightly off topic, but at what point (mileage/kms) would you expect a failure, and what failure would be “acceptable” ?? I think part of the JD ratings is people expecting a flawless machine and reporting/get upset over basic maintenance pieces.
Of course there is the absurdities like the example Swade used before of the Porsche owner expecting a certain number of stitches.
SAAB, in the US, has free scheduled maintenance. BMW is the only other brand to offer it here, so I do not see that being a factor.
Yay, go Saab.
I also had a 9-3 ss 03 as well. It, however, was total rubbish. Yes, we had the annoying peeling dash, etc. that are not really reliability problems, just build quality problems. but we also had the the towed 6 times in the 18 months that we owned it. 3 new batteries, a sheared suspension spring, new starter, 100’s of error messages on ole SID and many more to count. Thank GOD it was CPO.
that said, after complaining, saab gave us $2000 off our next saab (this discount could be used in addition to all GM/Saab discounts). Anyhow, we are now the proud owners of a 08 9-3 sportcombi 2.0. Had it for 4 months and put 7000 mi on it, and it is fantastic. It a MUCH better built car than the 03.
As far a reliability, saab has recommended picks by consumer reports for BOTH the 9-5 and 9-3 in 2008.
I am not on board with the consensus (so far) that Saab owners are unusually picky and therefore hard on the brand in the surveys. I’m thinking the opposite may be true…Saab owners are picky, but they are tolerant of the “quirkyness” of the brand and when they fill out the surveys they may be more forgiving of it because they love Saab so much and will dismiss minor rattles and such as too minor to fill out on the form.
The fact is, you buy Saab because you love it, not because of its quality.
However, people don’t really love Toyotas. They buy them for their quality…so I’d assume Toyota buyers would be significantly harder on the brand when failures crop up. I’ve always assumed JD Power underestimated Toyota quality and overestimated Saab quality.
BMW drivers though…I could see them trying to pretend their brand is better than it really is, even though they may be annoyed by it. I assumed JD Power overestimated BMW quality, but for a different reason than Saab.
Then again, JD Power may have ways of correcting these issues in the metrics.
David - I thought you were wondering why people perceive BMW > all. Saab definitly has had their own quality issues over the years which more than likely accounted for their rating.
This is my take on the situation: People buy a BMW for the image. If something breaks, they can get it fixed at their next scheduled mainteance and doesn’t impact their image at all. People buy a Saab for the design/content(Swedish designed/built, a different approach, etc…). If something does break, it’s carries a bigger negative impact.
I think we’re all forgetting that Saab has a pretty small wallet from which to pay for everything a car company needs to do. They are basically treading water, and worrying about things like peeling trim, wind noise and rattles in the dash are luxuries they cannot afford. So while my ‘06 is holding up much, much better than my ‘02, I still knew what I was getting into and did it anyway.
As James says, you buy a Saab because you really want it and you understand the compromises. Like no express up windows, no XM with nav, no Bluetooth, etc ………..
One thing I’ve wondered about in the JDP rating is whether part of the reason for some of those brands’ scores are due to not as many miles being put on, not being used as hard as some of the others. Let me just say it: Mercury, Caddy, Buick, Jaguar, Lincoln, even Lexus, are often bought in significant numbers by retirees who aren’t necessarily driving as often/far as a lot of us.
Continuing Adam’s thought,
Mechanically, all Mercury’s are rebadged Fords. The simple, cosmetic differences can not explain the 33% difference between their two scores. The only difference is in the owners. Fords may be driven harder and more frequently, thus bring up more issues. Furthermore Mercury owners may be simply happier with their purchase. Either way, the scores are too subjective to be meaningful.
I know that my Saab 9-3 has certainly contributed to that poor rating! I will never be able to justify again paying over 30,000 dollars for a car that is so poorly constructed. Squeaks, rattles, and peeling all over the dash and doors and the car is only three years old. Plus, the car died on the side of the highway due to a failed ECU and a cop had to push me with his car onto the grass, the wiper linkage broke twice, the gas cap, pump and float had to be replaced, the outside plastics have faded terribly, two oxygen sensors broke, the car leaked on the inside from rainwater due to a broken seal, the power drivers seat broke (the lumbar collapsed and the “lift” function failed), and I have replaced countless headlights due to the wire or harness or something of that sort burning out. I did not even mention all of the recalls on the car. What a train wreck! Meanwhile, I have had not one issue with my 2008 G35S or 2007 Acura TL and they are not even that far above industry average.
Also, (looking back at my file records): the back and front emblems peeled off, the heating fan failed, and the back lighting on the dashboard failed (at night time might I add)! I will have to say that some of these issues were covered by my warranty until I went over 50,000 miles. Out of pocket, I have literally spent thousands repairing what is in my opinion a “new” car.
I’m glad Saab is moving up in the rankings, but it has a way to go to catch Cadillac (sorry ’bout that, Swade).
JD Power’s methodology may not be the best possible, but their study is what is out there for the public at the moment. I haven’t seen anyone here post a study that contradicts what JD Powers has. Is there some other organization that rates auto quality that ranks Saab better, that contradicts JD Power? I’m interested in more than just anecdotal stories (ie: My Saab hasn’t had any problems since I’ve owned it.) Until I see some documented study that contradict JD Powers, then I have to say that their results are as good as we have.
It is difficult for me to believe that Saab owners are so much pickier than Lexus or BMW owners. Sorry, a lot of the rationalizations in the comments above come off sounding pretty lame. Hopefully, the folks at Saab and GM aren’t looking for excuses and rationalizations for the poor showing, but rather are looking for ways to improve the ranking for next time.
Joe - How’s the G35S? I am currently looking at upgrading to one but I heard that in 2009 they’re coming with a 3.7L (328HP) and a 7spd automatic.
In response to NineTwoX - I love the G35S. It is such an incredible car especially for the amount that it costs. The seats are also really cool because the bottom of the seat extends and the all sides of the seat (back and bottom) are inflatable to really situate you in the seat. It comes with so many standard features too. The Bose studio on wheels is also really great and the engine is very powerful with great driver feedback through the hand-stitched steering wheel! Sorry, I know this is a Saab blog so I will stop!!! I think that they are coming out with a slightly larger engine and 7 speed auto for the Europe launch, but I am not sure if it is coming to the US. I would assume it probably will. I am not sure if it would really improve the car that much and warrant waiting to purchase one, but it is certainly worth waiting for I suppose if you are in no rush to purchase a new car. They are also making a hybrid G35 I think for 2010.
One point of hope is Cadillac (# 3!). We’re all family, right? So hand over those keys to the success with “JD Powers ratings” to Saab, mind you?
to “Caddy-lover” Swade
I agree with Swade that the whole set up of this rating is questionable. Weren’t Saab and Volvo a couple of decades ago in the top 10 of this list?
Why some hit the news and others less is a good question too. The Swedish insurance company Folksam, one of Sweden’s leading insurers, publicizes its annual report/list of cars based on real life injuries/deaths. In those lists a Saab (9000/9-5) for many years has been best or at least in the top 3. Real life safety is what counts for me. Not a faulty CD player. Is the Folksam list reported in the US?
Sam - I think you need to keep in mind that the JD Power and Associates is for a specific region or country. In South Africa, Honda in most of its variants scores either 1 or 2 (I have a MY08 Civic 4-door sedan VXi with the 1.8i-VTEC engine) and it was the Car of the Year in 2007 and is the leader of its segment according to JD Power & Associates. Saab does not feature at all as GM Southern Africa does not move metal in Saab guise above 100 to be assessed. I believe there are different JD Power and Associates ratings for mainland Europe and the UK, right? So before generalizing the comments on this board as either being thumb-sucked, you need to look at the global arena and address your comments in that specific context. Is it possible that the 9-3 was a bad engineered car prior to the facelift of MY07 and hence the deserved beating it got in the reliability stakes? Was this applicable to mainland Europe, the UK and the USA? Funny, in Southern Africa, half of the problems experienced by owners in the UK, mainland Europe and USA does not exist here. Similar to the engine sludge problem in the B205 low pressure turbo engines (and this primarily due to wrong oil or additives used). In total, 4-5 B205L engines were affected. On a scale of 100, where does that rank?. Not a single 9-5 with the B235R engine sold in Southern Africa ever had something of that nature (I checked my facts before penning this). In Namibia, there were 4 9-5’s circa 2001. I had two (both Aero), a government official the 9-5 Arc and a friend another Aero. My turbo went at 124,000km (the maintenance plan had just expired at 105,000km and I did not take out the extended maintenance plan to 150,000km) and yet GM Southern Africa replaced the sub-assembly at cost price and offered me to pay the other 50%. Apart from that, no single hiccup. The other 9-5 are rock solid and are soldiering on into the horizon.
This is so not waht I have found, overall there has been nothing from me getting a second Saab now. Either I should buy a lottery ticket OR USA got a few bad batches of cars. Rule #1 never buy the 1 run of new model
ie)2003 9-3SS problems are bound. Give it about 2 more years and this model will jump though the roof in this report.
Any survey that gives equal weight to subjective opinion,e.g excessive wind noise,and objective fact,e.g the ABS module had to be replaced at 90 days….is too flawed to matter.
In the US, the magazine Consumer Reports carries as much, if not more, weight with regards to reliability. In 2008, for the first time, Saab got ‘best picks’ for both the 9-3 and 9-5. They showed significant improvement in the 9-3 from 03 to 07 (almost a perfect score in 07). By comparison, not one Merc model was selected as a ‘best pick’ and only the Volvo s60 was selected from the Volvo line up.
Working on mostly Saabs(but also seeing virtually everything else) for 30+ years now, neither Saabs, anything else, dealers, mechanics or owners are created equal. The differences between autos and manuals, base or loaded, city or highway driven, light color or dark, garaged or not, good test-pilot or not all add up. Dealers…some good, some not so much, and many multi-line would rather sell you a BMW or whatever. And GM/SaabUSA seem like they couldnt care less. But this JDPower thing really only muddies the quality question.
@Fred
“The differences between autos and manuals, base or loaded, city or highway driven, light color or dark, garaged or not, good test-pilot or not all add up.”
I’d be very interested to know your findings with regards to these factors!
Highway miles and garaging seem obvious, but the rest don’t seem as obvious.
Danni - I assume that the JD Powers study Swade refers to is confined to the USA, and maybe Canada, and doesn’t reflect a wider area of the world. But unless Saab and other manufacturers are building cars differently for the USA than for southern Africa, then the quality differences should carry through regardless of where the survey is taken.
I seem to have gotten myself in the position of defending the JD Powers survey, which wasn’t my intent. My only point is that JD Powers is a widely known and quoted study when it comes to auto quality in the USA, along with Consumer Reports (which I had forgotten about when I posted above). They may be flawed, they may be subjective, but they are influential, and they are what is out there in the public eye. So just blowing off the results of the study because it doesn’t put Saab in a good light really doesn’t do any good, because thousands or millions of people are looking at those studies and making judgments and decisions based on what they see there. In this case, perception is reality. Maybe some of the ratings are unfair and subjective, but all the other marques are judged by the same subjective standards.
Few months ago appeared a Consumer Report here in Spain from the Spanish Consumer Association, it was made in Spain, Portugal, Belgium, France and Italy, about 18000 people.
In this report the Consumer Association give different importance to every failure depending of the seriously and consecuences. The report takes in consideration 1 year membership of the car.(2006-2007)
this is the result;
1.- Mazda
2.- Toyota
3.- Honda
4.- Suzuki
5.- BMW
6.- Smart
7.- Saab
8.- Volvo
9.- Nissan
10.- Ford
What i can say about a 67tkm 9-3 SC:
1. Excessive wind noise - yes
2. Noisy brakes - yes
3. Vehicle pulling to the left or right - not yet
4. Issues with the instrument panel/dashboard - yes
5. Excessive window fogging - yes
Compared with a 170tkm Citroen C5
(for example 5.: after a rainy nightshift (or below 0° celcius) the windows of the C5 are less foggy and are clear in seconds. The 9-3 take minutes to get clear.
But: the C5 has even more rattles ^^ (maybe due to his age…?)