36 responses so far ↓

• 1 stormer // Aug 12, 2008 at 10:14 pm

  hi, i think it’s a good option for the base and if you look at the 1.6Turbo engine which is used for the corsa vxr/opc it should work. This “little” engine produces 192bhp, so i think thats enough for a car like the 9-5.

  http://autodrum.com/img/reviews/automobiles/opel/corsa_opc_2007/corsa_opc_2007_4.jpg

• 2 Tom // Aug 12, 2008 at 10:18 pm

  duel turbo?

• 3 Chris // Aug 12, 2008 at 11:06 pm

  Maybe its the SVC engine ?

• 4 Steven // Aug 12, 2008 at 11:23 pm

  Keep in mind that you used to be able to get a BWM 7 with a 2.0L and a 5 series with a 1.8L. I would guess that these cars are more than likely not destined for the US, but for most likely for countries that have high taxes on larger displacement engines???
  Regarding the “quite a bit large” A6, I’m just not seeing it… The 9-5 and the A6 sedans are not that much different in size now. The A6 is only 3″ longer and 3″ wider and the 9-5. WAY less of a difference than the 7″ shorter 9-3 which everyone keeps saying is so “similar” to the 9-5.

• 5 rogan2915 // Aug 12, 2008 at 11:33 pm

  Yeah, I mean, we can’t get to ahead of ourselves. Without knowing the horsepower and torque this thing puts out, judging it by displacment alone is pretty pointless. Look at the Lancer Evo FQ400… those engineers got 400 horsepower out of a 2 liter engine. I’m not saying that this is going to be a super powerful car, I’m just saying that there’s definatley room for this engine to produce adiquate power for the car, especially the base model, if some good engineers have been let at it.

• 6 wilfried // Aug 12, 2008 at 11:43 pm

  1,6 T OK if it has enough torque & power
  1,6 t OK if it has the same
  1,6 i ? Well if Honda can give a power output of 240 or 260 hp out of a normal aspirated 2 litre engine, … .

• 7 Moosexs // Aug 12, 2008 at 11:53 pm

  As I already commented to the other post that 1.6t used in Opel Insignia has 180hp (according to various sources online). It would be +30hp more than current generation’s base engine, inline with competion, and IMHO just perfect!

• 8 Danni // Aug 13, 2008 at 12:01 am

  I think the application in the various variants of the next 9-5 will be market specific. I am as yet to see a vehicle of the A6 proportions powered anything less then a 2.3 upwards in a V6 configuration in this part of the world. My question therefore would (apart from being an iron block) - what was wrong or is wrong with the current B235R engines then (2.3 4-cylinder turbo).

  Considering that the Alfa Romeo 2.5 V6 has been around now for almost 20 years since the original iteration in the 119 series of cars and has been honed and fine-tuned to become the 3.2 V6 with all the gadgets we know today, why couldn’t Saab hone and fine-tune the B235R engine?

  At the end of the day, perhaps the 1.6T or TT would perhaps not be that bad, just a market perception - VW has in the VW Tiguan a 1.4TSI (turbo supercharged petrol version) kicking 110kW @5800rpm and 214Nm between 1750 - 4000rpm with a kerb weight 1520kg - 2000kg depending on the options fitted. This sounds like the typical kerb weight of the 9-5 right?

• 9 Ivan(MuzX) // Aug 13, 2008 at 12:22 am

  Rightsizing and being more enviromental friendly could be an important message, so I support it.

• 10 Bernard // Aug 13, 2008 at 12:30 am

  “what was wrong or is wrong with the current B235R engines”

  Nothing wrong with the engine itself, the only real problem is that it is only used in one low-volume car, which makes it expensive. The 9-3 (and most other GM 4 cylinder petrol cars) uses an engine from the Ecotec family. The Ecotec ranges from 1.6 to 2.4 litres, although I’m sure the promised new 1.4 Turbo will be of a similar design.

  From a corporate perspective, it makes no sense for Saab to use a completely different line of engines.

  From our perspective, it means that R&D doesn’t get split between engine families. This split is probably largely responsible for the fact that the 9-3 biopower was years late to market: Saab spent their money getting their “own” engine to work with E85, and then had to spend it again to get the Ecotec engine working.

• 11 a-ro 95 // Aug 13, 2008 at 1:20 am

  The base Audi A6 here in Germany is powered by either a 2.0T with 170PS or a 2.0TDI with 140PS
  The base 5 Series is either the 520i with 170PS/210Nm or 520d with 177PS and 350Nm
  The base S60 has either a 2.4i with 140PS/220Nm or 2.0T with 180PS/240Nm
  The base S80 has a 2.0i with 145PS/190Nm

  The petrol engines available for the Opel Insignia are
  1.6i 115PS/155Nm
  1.8i 140PS/175Nm
  2.0T 220PS/350Nm
  2.8i 260PS/350Nm

  So I think that it is highly possible that an efficient 1.6T could be the base motor for the next 9-5 with approx. 170-190PS and 220-250Nm

• 12 Smoke_Jaguar4 // Aug 13, 2008 at 1:43 am

  Another problem with the B235R is it’s an older iron block design which weighs as much as an all-aluminium V6.

  There’s been a lot of talk of a GM base 1.4L turbo engine for the U.S., which will be a major shift for a country used to V8’s and V6’s. With recent updates in induction technology, a smaller engine is very appealing if people can get over the initial ego bump. Basically, 200 HP is 200 HP, and it doesn’t matter if comes from a V6, turbo 4, or a Flux Capacitor and Mr. Fusion unit.

• 13 Ken H // Aug 13, 2008 at 3:12 am

  danni, the previous Alfa V6 has indeed a long and proud history, and it evolved into the magnificient 3,2 V6 as found in 147 GTA, 156 GTA, 166, and GT (some say it’s the finest production engine ever…). But, it was not possible to meet Euro V standards with it, and it has been replaced with today’s 3,2 V6, which has very strong Australian connections. You guessed it now I guess, it’s based on the same V6 as Saab is using.

• 14 mackan // Aug 13, 2008 at 3:31 am

  1,6TT Biopower with 14:1 compression ratio, sounds like a nice engine to me!

• 15 WooDz // Aug 13, 2008 at 3:59 am

  Just to add to A-ro 95, I checked out the German Audi site to find out what base engines are available for the New A4 and the soon to be replaced A6.

  A-ro 95 has mentioned the 170hp DI 2.0TSFI engine for the A6. The A4 has a 1.8TFSi with 160hp, 7.1l/100km and 169g/km. I think trying to work out what will be the base engine in the NG A6, we should look at the A4 and with the current trend of downsizing, I can see the 1.8TFSI making an appearance in the A6 with the same 160hp.

  Saab usually mention their 150hp per litre target when talking about ‘right-sizing’ (as opposed to ‘down-sizing’. Most of the new GM turbo engines are delivering about 130hp per litre as Moosexs has written above.

  One of the problems the 1.4TFSI VW Tiguan faces is low-end torque. Dealers that I have spoken with, say the car is a good drive as long as you keep it ’spooled up’. This doesn’t sound like efficient driving whilst trying to cross town but I foresee cruising on the highway having a completely different effect on economy.

  A 1.6 litre does sound a bit small for a mid-size vehicle, however if the torque is about 250nm from 1700rpm it will be on per with its competitors for performance. The advantage of the 1.6 Turbo would be the fuel economy of around 6.3l/100km (37mpg US), and around 10% reduction in C02 emissions.

  If I could afford one… Yes I would buy one.

  (My calculations are based on differences between various 2.0,1.8 and 1.6 litre engines from Audi and OPEL)

  .

• 16 elsch // Aug 13, 2008 at 4:34 am

  The engine is most likely the same that works in the Opel/Vauxhall Corsa and Astra at the moment. The 150 bhp from the “smaller” should be a good replacement for the old 2 litre of the current model. Although it will have a little less torque.
  The 180 bhp version has quite a chance to get a huge turbo lack due to the necessarily larger turbo… and it needs high octane fuel (98 to 100 to be concrete) in the Opels and Vauxhalls. - Which might chase away some customers due to simply higher running costs.

  Good engine from what I’ve heard about it so far. - Direct injection would be a nice upgrade to get on the Saab then…

• 17 saabyurk // Aug 13, 2008 at 4:36 am

  C’mon Saab, give it a two-stroke! It’s time for two-stroke to make a comeback. How about sharing tech with Lotus on this direct injected, variable compression, flex-fuel, two stroke engine. This engine says “Saab” all over it. I want it.
  See Autoblog on the Lotus Engine.

• 18 elsch // Aug 13, 2008 at 4:53 am

  … and to add another point: Do you guys know that you can buy a 9-3 here in Europe with a 1.8i engine and just 122 horses under the bonnet?
  It’s late 1990s Opel-developed engine, which is used in the 9-3 and Opel’s small drop-top thing Tigra TT.
  It’s just part of the range to lower the entry price. - Not necessary for the US as you buy the cars for cheap money anyway. If you buy them at all…

  By myself I think that Saab is going to test the idea of a small engine in a big car on the public in Paris. They are going to develop it anyway (for Opel, Chevrolet or… whatever) as they are the center of turbocharging within GM - so what to say against that test. If you guys like it, you prove GM wrong on the point that the market is not yet ready for the downsizing that is technically possible.
  If you guys don’t like it there’s still time to drop it and try it somewhere else as the top of the range.

  In addition to that, you should forget about the “responsible performance”. - Saab is the brand to lead all the others!

• 19 elsch // Aug 13, 2008 at 4:56 am

  … you should NOT forget… - sorry for that one!

  elsch.

• 20 MarkoA // Aug 13, 2008 at 6:25 am

  Of course 1.6T would make sense in Europe. It would have equal output as 9-5 2.0t has today (150hp/240Nm) and many of my workmates drives them and likes them. They are not fast, nowhere near. But they still are practical Saab and they offer nice driving experience. Germany is also getting car tax CO2 emission based in the close future. And that is the way to go I guess. So for this reason, the smaller the better. Not everyone needs or wants more power.
  I drove 9-3 1.8t with 150hp/240Nm and it was very nice like that, though I got it BSR´d later..
  When I drove TTiD first time, I thought why not make it 1.5 liter - 140hp/280Nm or like that? That would still be reasonable figure for 9-3.

• 21 turbin // Aug 13, 2008 at 7:19 am

  And Swade, do you not see a contradiction in supporting a 2.0T engine in the 2000+kg 9-4X and disapproval of a 1.6T in a sub 1600kg 9-5?? And, as for all this no N/A engines for Saab, how else can they offer efficient base engines other tahn with a big-turboed small-block?

  Again we can only speculate but many are complaining about such a ’small’ engine in such a ‘large’ car. The base Insignia is just over 1500kg with driver, surely the base 9-5 is not going to be anymore than 100kg heavier with driver (??)

• 22 wilfried // Aug 13, 2008 at 7:51 am

  Down- or rightsizing is more than OK, but it has to be played smart in a so called premium car.
  (all a matter of perspective & marketing , I guess)
  For my part they put in a small 1,4 twin turbo, if i produces the torque and power.

  But then there is one route to take, not the saabyurk-two-stroke-route, but the lotus-iightweight-but stiff enough-route.
  Saab should prove it can produce the maximum-safety-cell with a extreme-lightweight-scandinavian-styled-space-shuttle. That will be quirky or have the ‘mojo’, or whatever you like to call it.
  This insignia thing just looks to me like an updated vessel from opels past, opel diplomat & the kind, with emphasis on chrome and bling to shine next to the ones of the german triumvirate.

  I’m afraid the forthcoming 9-5 is just some clever badge-engineered thing with enough saab-sauce over it, we’ll forgive it the opel-connection.
  Hope it turns out (more) saabish, not only design-wise but also technologically.

• 23 swade // Aug 13, 2008 at 9:33 am

  Turbin,

  The main mistake I’ve made here is talking in terms of this engine being ‘the’ engine for the Saab 9-5. That won’t be the case, though I know I’ve probably approached it that way in these writings, which has placed a larger emphasis on my point of view. If I were to ever consider one of these new generation 9-5s in the future, I’d be looking at a bigger donk. I may not even have to look for one as we may not get the choice here in Oz.

  My concern over this engine is a practical one, wheras my promotion of a turbocharged four for the 9-4x is a philosophical stance.

  My concern with this engine is due to the fact that whilst it might be capable of delivering hp and torque numbers that top what a 2.0 or 2.3 Saab 9-5 has delivered in the past, it’s the way it delivers that might be less than optimal for a flagship model. I’d envisage a Saab 9-5 to be powerful but also to be smooth and predictable. Maybe this engine can do that. I don’t know. But my initial thought is that a 1.6 turbo in what will be a pretty large car will either be working it’s arse off and possibly less reliable, or it’ll be quite high strung and twitchy.

  With regard to the 9-4x: I’m opposed to the n/a six base model because I think a nicely tuned turbo four would be capable, and even more because I think turbocharging is a vital part of Saab’s DNA now and all Saabs should be turbocharged.

• 24 rogan2915 // Aug 13, 2008 at 11:28 am

  I guess we’ll just have to see what it’s like to drive. Like Swade, if I was ever buying the car, I’d definatley want a bigger engine… but there’s a lot of people who couldn’t care less about the engine size or power or torque, as long as the car drives well.

• 25 Alex // Aug 13, 2008 at 12:06 pm

  Where’s the option for “sounds great for a base engine, especially if it makes 100+ hp/liter or is offered with a hybrid drivetrain”

  While I’m hoping for a ~350hp 9-5 Aero that can run toe-to-toe with the 550i, A6 4.2, E550, GS460, and M45. I would go so far as to say that in order to cement itself as a premium brand on equal footing with it’s competitors, Saab NEEDS to produce a car with that kind of performance and power. Make it with a turbo V6 instead of a V8 and combine it with Turbo X handling and Saab would finally be able to attract attention to the brand with a car that meets everything that the media expects from a top-level Saab.

  At the same time, Saab needs to make a strong statement about what it stands for as a brand, that idea of environmentally responsible performance. While the 350hp 9-5 Aero would give Saab the long-lost “performance” street cred that it desperately needs, they need an equally impressive car to drive home the “environmentally responsible” side of things. Nothing would drive that home quite like offering the large new 9-5 with a comparatively tiny 1.6 liter engine.

  Now depending on how tightly GM is holding the reins, Saab would do well to make an even bigger statement by offering a 1.6T engine combination that makes the kind of power that nobody would expect from such a small engine. Direct injection is one simple solution, and given the 2.0T DI engine’s 260hp, a 1.6T engine should have no problem making ~200hp, which would be more than adequate for a 9-5-sized car.

  Another, more expensive option would be to combine a light-pressure ~120-150hp 1.6T engine with some sort of hybrid drivetrain. This would give you a car with plenty of bottom-end power that drives like the old 3.0t, but returns fuel mileage like a 1.6 LPT would. More importantly, Saab would be the only company to offer a luxury sedan in the 9-5’s size class that can return that kind of gas mileage. The only problem is that it works so well for Saab that there’s no way in hell that Detroit would five it the go-ahead.

• 26 SaabKen // Aug 13, 2008 at 3:37 pm

  According to the recent Motor Trend report, engines for the 9-5 begin at 2.8L. Unless they were referring strictly to exports to outside of Europe.
  
  http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0808_saab_9_4x_and_9_5/index.html

  Engines will be all-turbo, including four-cylinder L850 units and GM’s high-feature V-6s, starting at 2.8 liters. E85 versions will be prominent here, while Europe gets diesels, including a 1.9-liter, 200-horse twin-turbo. Eventually the States will likely get GM’s brand-new 2.9-liter V-6 diesel to be first launched in the Euro-market Cadillac CTS. It makes 240 horses and 370 pound-feet of torque.

• 27 carl // Aug 13, 2008 at 8:12 pm

  http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/226374/new-insignia-hits-road.html
  “”158bhp turbo 1.6″”
  Other petrol units will include a 138bhp 1.8, a “”158bhp turbo 1.6″” and a 256bhp V6 flagship. Diesels will comprise 128bhp and 158bhp 2.0 litres. A twin-turbo with 187bhp will follow, as will a four-wheel-drive variant.

• 28 Markac // Aug 13, 2008 at 8:22 pm

  1.6 litres sounds a bit ridiculous for a car that’s supposed to be 5 metres in length. Even 1.8 sounds a bit small. I would’ve thought a base engine of 2 litres with other fours ranging up to 2.4 litres would be good. With V6s starting at 2.8 and going up to 3.4 litres.

  You could produce a 1.6 litre turbo with sufficient power and torque to cope with such a car, but I think it’s long term durability would be suspect. I have to agree with Swade, a 1.6 litre turbo may lack refinement for Saabs range topping car. We aren’t talking Corsas here!

  How about a little 2 litre V6 turbo? Again refinement is a issue. I don’t think the Holden V6 will be refined enough for such a car.

• 29 Bernard // Aug 13, 2008 at 11:22 pm

  SaabKen,

  The quote you give states that the V6s will start at 2.8, but that there will also be at least one four cylinder engine.

  Carl,

  Just because Opel’s 1.6 put-out 158hp doesn’t mean that Saab won’t get a higher output version. As other have pointed out, a direct injection turbo 1.6 should easily beat 200hp.

  All,

  I am still amazed that the Saab faithful who comment on this blog suddenly don’t believe that a four cylinder turbo can deliver the goods or be reliable. It looks like this engine will put out more power and torque than the current 2.3 LPT, never mind the 150 hp 2.0t.
  Perhaps Saab should do like other brands and label the 1.6T “2.0t+” to get over the perception gap.

• 30 saaboy // Aug 14, 2008 at 10:41 am

  smoke_jaguar-

  “Basically, 200 HP is 200 HP, and it doesn’t matter if comes from a V6, turbo 4, or a Flux Capacitor and Mr. Fusion unit.”

  I think its fair to say this is not true. Different engines can deliver VERY different ‘200 horsepower’s. For example, a 1.6T engine will deliver a very different hp and torque curve than a 2.0 or 2.3 that might also peak at 200 hp.

• 31 SaabKen // Aug 14, 2008 at 11:50 am

  Did anyone catch this bit from the original story source (Channel 4 UK) ?

  “Further down the line, GM’s new 2.9-litre V6 diesel will be offered. Saab’s XWD four-wheel-drive system will be offered, and expect a high-riding, SUV-style crossover variant of the estate to follow. ”

  http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=17938&intcmp=rss_4car_news

• 32 Gunnar // Aug 14, 2008 at 2:38 pm

  If it’s near 200 ponies than I could see someone ponying up the dough for 1.6 Liter 9-5. Otherwise, pass.

• 33 N // Aug 14, 2008 at 6:25 pm

  Do not know if anyone noticed, but the 1.6T is available in the current Astra and produced 180hp. This engine will also find it´s way down in the Insignia any day now..

• 34 Michael // Aug 15, 2008 at 4:55 am

  …who, except one of the few German Saab drivers, has ever asked the engine to deliver 150hp or 200 hp? Hardly anyone. But most of all ahve experienced the max. torque a Saab engine is able to deliver.

  Thus, the whole question about hp, but in particular about displacement, is rather artificial.

  One interesting thought:

  2l displacement is the maximum volume of all four cylinders at bottom dead centre at the same time. But this scenario never happens thanks to the crank shaft. Otherwise this would indicate a engine´s total write off.

  And even if it would be this way, bottom dead cntre is the point where the the combustion process starts again, thus no power is transmitted to the crank shaft. So, that do you do with these quarter litre per cylinder? Filling it with Ale and get drunk?

  Another interesting point about “right sizing”: In the late 80s and early 90s, Saab already advertised their 2l Turbos as an economical but yet powerful alternative to 2,5l-3l V6 engines. Did you already forget that? Now, 2l engines a matured and turned into the dinosaurs the 3l V6 were in the old Saab adds.

• 35 Ubermich // Aug 17, 2008 at 2:15 am

  As far as I see it, I don’t care how BIG the engine is. I care about output. I think the new 9-5 should have 3 output levels; a base model between 250hp and 270hp, a mid-range w & w/o XWD around 300hp, and a high-performance XWD at 350hp (all with lbft ratings equal or greater than their respective hp ratings, like a proper Saab).

  If this 1.6T is built and produces less than 210hp (standard on current 9-3 in the US), they might as well close shop and send everyone home.

• 36 Moosexs // Aug 18, 2008 at 4:58 pm

  A quite interesting insight about the GM engines I picked up from Autoblog’s comments. This one comes from “Griffon” (http://www.autoblog.com/profile/792794/), and seems like the guy really known what he is talking about:

  “The 1.6 is the standard turbo engine in the Family 1 series of engines, one size up from the Family 0, and a size down from the Family II. GM’s engine families are determined by bore spacing, but each generation has other features in common as well. The Family 1 engines are produced in Sventgotthard, Hungary (Ecotec III 1.6 and 1.8 L engines), Korea (GM Daewoo E-Tec II 1.4, 1.5 and 1.6 L, Ecotec II 1.8 L and Ecotec III 1.4, 1.6 and later this year 1.8 L) and Brazil (SOHC EconoFlex 1.0, 1.4 and 1.8 L high-compression E20–E100 flexfuel engines). The Ecotec III Family 1 uses a new lightweight, more compact iron block, with either Dual-VVT, turbocharging or TwinPort active intake-ports (the latter two options only on 1.6 L engines). The 1.6 Turbo is built in several different outputs (IIRC 150, 180 and 192 PS), and replaces the low-boost versions of the Family II 2.0 Turbo (170, 175 and 200 PS). As with the Family 0 and Family II turbos, you can expect Dual-VVT and DI to further boost the efficiency and power of the 1.6 Turbo in future. The Turbo 1.6 is currently offered on the Corsa, Meriva, Astra and Zafira, and will next appear on the Insignia. The Dual-VVT engines are offered on the Corsa, Meriva, Astra, Zafira, Vectra and 2009 Aveos; and later this year the Cruze will debut in Korea (as the new Daewoo Lacetti) with the 1.8 Dual-VVT.”

  180HP or 192HP 1.6t engine doesn’t sound bad at all!