Comments

• Richo said:
  

  That photo would have been better if it wasn’t on an angle…

  -June 24th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
• Markac said:
  

  It makes good sense to build the 9-1 and the new 9-3 together in the same factory, especially as they will be quite closely related, it seems. Saab just need to get the 9-1 out close to the new Astra’s debut and use the capacity that will be available at Trollhattan after the 9-5 departs for Russellheim. I’m sure it’ll make the 9-1 in far greater numbers than the 9-5, but 3 door and 5 door hatches please.
  At least a 3 door!

  Saab can then concentrate on it’s 9-3 replacement and hopefully make it really something special. I want to buy a new 9-1 or 9-3 three door hatch Saab, but you have to make them first!

  -June 24th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
• Ronald said:
  

  GMNA 2007 Sales:

  Chevrolet……………….2,654,019
  GMC……………….578,845
  Pontiac……………….485,885
  Saturn……………….265,901
  Cadillac……………….225,032
  Buick……………….201,690
  HUMMER……………….59,141
  Saab……………….35,175
  Opel/Vauxhall…………2,248
  Other……………….7,906
  ——————————————-
  Total……………….4,515,842

  Source:
  http://www.reuters.com/article/press…08+PRN20080123

  Take a look at this. Why on all earth is the HUMMER brand selling allmost almost double the amount of Saab? Hummer is what, the enemy of the state??

  -June 24th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
• 1985 Gripen said:
  

  Ronald: why are there Opel/Vauxhalls listed in there? Do they sell them in Canada? Are they counting rebadged Saturns?

  That is a really pathetic number for such a great car company. GM should be ashamed of themselves (though I know they’re not).

  -June 24th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
• Ronald said:
  

  I was wondering the same Gripen. I was wondering even more, however, what those other 7k sales were from in the “other” category. maybe heavy duty machinery?

  The real let down is the HUGE gap in sales between Buick and Hummer! Its like a 4 fold fall!

  But see, after this, everything in relations to Saab and the North American marketplace falls into place. Look at Buick sales in relation to Saabs (I never knew there was over 200,000 old people), see the difference? What about Cadillac vs. Saab? wanna get REALLY dirty? lets go with Chevy.

  Obviously you can see I kept going up the chart in relations to cars being sold (not necessarily profiting however), and as the numbers kept getting larger, Saab’s numbers were becoming more and more irrelevant.

  Swade has been preaching this for a while now: Saab contributes very little to GM’s bottom line. It just doesnt matter too much.

  While its all nice to be in the black, I think its ok for Saab to be in the Red for now. What we really need is just some more attention and product. Now Chevy, in comparison, if they were in the Red: ABANDON SHIP!

  It seems that we think, by accidental default, that all car companies sell at the same numbers. And that is why everyone wants to scream SELL SAAB. But when those vehicles contribute very little if you make it to the black or not, the parent company just begins not to care.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
• Markac said:
  

  We may have discounted Robert Collin’s earlier report in Aftonbladet, but maybe there was a fair bit of truth in what he said? Here is what he has written more recently.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
• mo said:
  

  god i hate myself. i bought gm stock over a year ago for about 31 bucks a share, now only 13.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
• Kroum said:
  

  Ronald, nice post. This just goes to show how utterly ignorant the majority of automotive press are - relaying rumours that it’s gonna be either GMC or Pontiac that are gonna bite the dust. Ya sure, GM’s top three sellers.

  It ain’t gonna happen. Even if GMC sales dive 50% this year due to rising gas prices, they would still out-sell Cadillac. And I’m fairly certain GM still makes enough money off the brand.

  Hummer is in another league altogether. I’m not sure there is another car brand under the sun that is subjected to so much hate, even though plenty of other manufacturers are guilty of producing gas-guzzling giants.

  Where does all that leave Saab? You really ought to read between the lines when the GM suits talk about Saab’s expertise in efficient engines, unique European styling and the whole lot. The gang over at Renaissance Center had close to 20 years to highlight and exploit those characteristics. And as we all know, they didn’t.

  So in my humble view, Saab could be on the table if the right buyer came and offered the right price. Any talk of GM leeching off Saab engineering expertise should be no more - the General had two decades to watch, learn and steal. And pardon my bluntness, but Saab engineers have done little to challenge the status quo since the 80’s. When BMW and Audi beat you at your own game, you know you’ve fallen behind.

  This, of course, brings us backto our favourite discussion: who would be the ideal owner of Saab? Porsche? PSA? Renault? Fiat? Or perhaps Saab Aerospace?

  In reality, potential buyers are emerging third world manufacturers such as Mahindra, looking for a backdoor to established markets in the West. And if the fate os Saab is such, I’d much rather have GM as the corporate parent, thank you very much.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
• Ryan McLean said:
  

  It’s true small cars don’t pull in the kinds of profit that larger ones do, but the 9-1, being a premium compact car, would pull in better profits then, say, a Cobalt or Aveo.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
• SaabKen said:
  

  Swade, at a recent meet of our club, we chanced on bumping into a sales manager for a large local automotive dealer chain, who has just bought the sole remaining Saab dealer in town. Turns out this chain is buying the former Saab/Saturn dealer and moving it to brand new facilities in another part of that same city. At the same time, he also indicated they would add at least TWO more dealerships in town that would include Saab (ie: Cadillac-Saab-Hummer, etc), one of them in downtown Vancouver and another in south part of city proper. All fantastic news, esp. in front of many of our members (in the IKEA parking lot, how sweet the irony).

  I sneaked a few questions to this (our local Canadian) Deep Throat, who nodded when I asked if the 9-4X AND the 9-1 are arriving to dealers by 2010. He was a little less positive on the 9-1 timeline but didn’t disagree when I asked him if the project has been given greenlight by GM/GME.

  So there you go …..

  -June 24th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
• Markac said:
  

  Kroum: I get the feeling if GM is to sell Saab, it won’t be a quick sale but a slow divorce. Whoever buys Saab will need to closely rely on GM for perhaps 5 to 10 years. This could make Saab Aerospace a good candidate. I’m sure the Swedish government wouldn’t mind that either.

  I’m sure GM has learned pretty much all it needs to learn from Saab by now. Does GM really need it anymore?

  -June 24th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
• Ronald said:
  

  Kroum:
  “This, of course, brings us backto our favourite discussion: who would be the ideal owner of Saab? Porsche? PSA? Renault? Fiat? Or perhaps Saab Aerospace?

  In reality, potential buyers are emerging third world manufacturers such as Mahindra, looking for a backdoor to established markets in the West. And if the fate os Saab is such, I’d much rather have GM as the corporate parent, thank you very much.”

  Its funny, I think about this all the time, and I gotta say, the list is getting smaller and smaller. Its really come down to about 4 groups, not including US based private equaty groups. Those four:
  1. PSA- Still relatively close to Saabs home region, has the cash/time, would fit into the PSA group as luxury oriented (Something they lack).
  2. Tata- Bucket loads of cash, loves a challenge (hell, anyone who buys Landrover and [to a lesser extent] Jaguar, must really want a challenge), gives tremendous brand independence, and would easily slot below Jaguar.
  3. Saab Aero- Tricky one. Not much cash on hand i dont believe, has the swedish dedication, link to Saab past.
  4. Mahindra- Still eager to buy a car company, still loads of cash, wants to compete with Europe and fellow Tata. Best way to do it? Saab.

  Of course this is all small possibility, but what I’m scared of now is GM wanting to mimic the Jaguar/L.R. sale by selling Saab/HUMMER TOGETHER to a buyer. of course that would knockout every buyer I listed except Mahindra, and if they say no.. then its all said and done.

  Pure speculatory, but as you can see, I’m prepared for the future, and GM’s future looks very dim. I predict [and you heard it here first] the Chevy Volt will come too late/not at all/ not meet consumer expectations/or battery or tech problems, and GM will run out of money in 2-5 years. Most analysts are aiming at 2 years if they dont get their act together, which means dumping Hummer, revitalizing Saab, clean up the overall corporate image, and figure out what to do with Pontiac and Buick to turn them into the black.

  GMs dragging their feet, its not that hard.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
• Adrian said:
  

  Strikes me the 9-1 is exactly what Saab needs in Europe.

  With the very big push towards better fuel economy and lower CO2 emissions, more and more people are buying premium-brand-small instead of larger cars. Bear in mind a 9-3 is a fairly large car here, let alone a 9-5.

  Ford have the Volvo C30, VAG have the A3, Merc have the A & B class, BMW have the 1-class (remember we get 3 & 5 door hatch versions not seen in leftpondia) & Mini. Where’s GM?

  -June 24th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
• Tobias said:
  

  The end of the article in TTELA is pure speculation. But the other part seems to come from a source. The speculations rants about a future 9-1 and that i could be placed in Trollhättan. But no info if it will be built or not.

  My personal favourite is that 9-3 and the 9-1 or 9-2 will be almost the same car. 9-3 in sedan and wagon and the 9-2 will be a hatch! (the hatch will be a bit smaller)

  -June 24th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
• MarkoA said:
  

  Teknikens värld also writes about the future of Saab and 9-1 model. Information appears to be the same as TTELA are saying.

  I´m very sceptical about the 9-1. GM is not in financial situation that its going to give green light to 9-1. 9-1 will need to be made and sold huge amounts to be really profitable. And considering that the “Golf” class is already full of great cars, efficient, good looking etc. Saab 9-1 really needs to be THAT different to break through.

  Of course Id like to see the future line up from Trollhattan to be something like 9-3 (Sedan, Wagon, XC-wagon) 9-2 Hatch (5dr, 3dr, convertible) and 9-1 (practical, Different, shaped like 9x with loads of neat functions).

  But, as we know the next 9-3 will be made circa 2012, what we have so far is 9-5 (2009) and 9-4X (2009?).

  What they really need to get to market quickly, is XWD option for the whole line up. It would really make 9-3 more desirable in many ways. Performance, practicality etc. And also critical would be XWD combined with diesel engine. If it will not happen on 9-3 - no good. And in my opinion it (XWD) should only be a (x) on a option list. To all engines, to all packages (Linear,Vector,Aero). I know that for example base model Linear 9-3SC 1.8t XWD would be a hit here. Every other Saab driver swears that theres no 4wd option. If you´d drive 5 months on a snow/slush/ice during the year, you´d pretty surely know why!

  Saab had the opportunity to be the only maker to offer XWD (Haldex 4) but soon that time is gone for good. You can have it on a VW, Skoda, Ford etc in pretty close future.

  9-3 XC is already late. I truly hope that well see it on august, London motorshow - and it should be available on order immediately.

  ..and IF there will be 9-3 XC TTiD Aut. availabe for a reasonable price, here´s one potential buyer.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
• Tompa said:
  

  Adrian.. The Opel Astra in Cosmo pack or the OPC isn´t that crappy is i? The C30 should be left out of your list since the design and price makes it a slow seller. Design in the way that it´s not practical in any sence, bootspace is worse than a Mini and the price is higher than it too. The price of the C30 starts at 19.100 Euros (Base 1,6 100hp)
  The Mini One starts at 16.150 Euros (One 1,4 95hp)
  Volvo states that the C30 is a “Lifestyle” vehicle.. Well in Sweden it seams that it´s an “eldely liftstyle” vehicle. For people thats been driving Volvos all their life and buys the C30 as their last car. BMW makes small cars like the 1-series.. But they don´t clame that it´s a “lifestyle” vehicle and make it impractical.. They bought the name MINI for that reason. Ooh.. that bacame a long explanation for saying.. The C30 shouldn´t be in the bunch.

  Hope Saab never clame the 9-1 to be a “lifestyle” in the sence Volvo does with the C30.

  Who should own Saab.. Well.. If GM get their act together they should continue as owner. But looking at the list presented earlier in comments this is my take on it:

  1. PSA- Bucketloads of cash.. But they have their own “luxury” vehicle as theu see it any way and that is Citroën. C6 anyone? Not for for me.. Golfhunter help me out in explaining. Their other brand Peugeot is their Sporty brand with huge sellers like the 206 and now 207 (which will never sell as much as the 206 did) and the 307 and now 308.
  2. Tata- NEVER! The do have cash.. So much of it that if a project goes sour, they will just scrap it and move on. Poor Jaguar!
  3. Saab Aero- No.. Will not happen. Saab AB specializes in fighters, maintenance of their former commercial airliners (Turboprop 340 and 2000), Radarsystems, Satellites, Missiles and other weaponsystems. Wouldn´t want Saab Automobile AB back.. But please Saab AB.. Prove me wrong.
  4. No.. Same as reason as Tata
  5. Renault… Another french manufacturer. Their Truckdivision works together with Volvo Trucks.. BUT their Renault cars don´t. Renult has been sold through the Volvo dealers in Sweden for many years where Volvo is playing big brother to a company they have no cooperation with. It was P-G Gyllenhammars (Former Volvo boss) own wet dream to merge Volvo and Renault once. He even had ideas for a Volvo-Saab coop. It was not to be, but the sales are handled trough Volvo. Strange considdering todays ownership. Oh, Some Volvodealers sell Ford, but most of them sell Renault. I believe that Renaults cooperation with Nissan could mean something positive for Saab. Renault like Saab is a brand that focuses on the environment and safety and like Saab they used to be very competitive in rallying.
  Renault does not think of themselves, unlike Citroën, as beeing a luxury brand, but a competitor to Volkswagen, Seat and Opel. Their cooperating company Nissan has their own luxury brand Infinity, but that brand is mostly focused in selling in the US. There have been thoughts of selling Infinity in Europe, but unlike GM and Caddy, they understand the troubles and costs in launching a brand not known in Europe or atleast seen as an American Japanese car.. Saab would, as I see it, fit Renault like a glove. They would then have their own global brand with luxurypotential and a company that together with them could be the hightech and safety company of the world. But I´ve heard earlier that Renult aren´t interested.. Thats a shame. Could be good..
  6. Scania.. Their old sybling that know has gone and married Volkswagen.. So therefore Scania is out of the question.

  So my wishes for another parent is… Renault.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
• Adrian said:
  

  Tompa,

  “The Opel Astra in Cosmo pack or the OPC isn´t that crappy is i?”

  Yes. Next.

  However much it’s tarted up, it’s still got a Vauxhall/Opel badge on it - since you can get all the kit in a Skoda Octavia & VW Golf, Audi might as well drop the A3.

  Have to admit, as a Citroen fanatic, I don’t see Cit as PSA’s “luxury brand” - the C6 probably should have seen the Panhard brand exhumed - and when you look at the majority of the range, there is no clear “Citroen is x, Peugeot is y” differentiation. If anything, Citroen is marketed here as the value brand, more akin to GM’s Chevywoo - heavy discounts, TV ads basically saying “Buy this, it’s cheap”, keeping old models lingering on for years as a cheap alternative to their replacement.

  Renault & Volvo have strong historic links, partly through the Douvrin engines (PSA, too, but Renault-Volvo had much more commonality) and partly through the remnants of DAF. Since Volvo cars are Ford, though, those links are long dead. Volvo trucks are, as with Saab cars/Scania/Saab planes, separate from Volvo cars, merely sharing a brand.

  As far as shared dealers go, the local Volvo dealer here is dual-franchise with Citroen, so…

  I could see the Tata link working well, with the next 9-3/X-type and next 9-5/XF being related, and possibly a Freelander/9-4x. Hmmm.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
• Markac said:
  

  MarkoA: I think GM could build the 9-1 for about 10% more than a similar spec Astra, but sell it for 30% more. That would still make it a viable option.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
• Adam said:
  

  Renault isn’t doing so well right now, is it? Plus having Infiniti, I doubt it.

  You know, another reason to move 9-3 “production” to Sweden could be potential to sell the brand. The 9-5 is far enough along in development that its form is set, it can be built elsewhere. But since the 9-3 and 9-1 aren’t set, you “consolidate” them to Sweden so the buyer has those decisions and the Swedish facilities wrapped up in one tidy package. The more mixed up with Opel Saab is, the harder it is to sell.

  While we’re wildly speculating, let me throw another crazy idea out there. Toyota is buying up Subaru bit by bit. I’ve always thought that Subaru and Saab were a great fit. Now, Toyota has Lexus and would have the same situation as GM with Saab, where it makes no difference to the bottom line. Now, I don’t know Subaru’s cash situation (would GM “sell” Saab for free like DB sold Chrysler?), but how about this: Subaru acquires Saab as its luxury marque, and as a poison pill against Toyota taking over completely? Saab would be large enough in Subaru to make a difference, and Toyota would have less incentive to completely take over Subaru, allowing them to maintain independence.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
• MarkoA said:
  

  Subaru and Saab would be a perfect fit!

  -June 24th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
• Adrian said:
  

  …just look at the raging global success of the 9-2x…

  -June 24th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
• Markac said:
  

  Adrian: Raging global success of the 9-2x? At least we were spared the Tribecca, sorry 9-6x. The Imprezza is not a premium car and Saab couldn’t make it one. Not that it could afford to try very hard.

  Adam: I’m guessing whoever was to buy Saab will end up with a similar deal that Tata got from Ford with the Jaguar XF. GM will try much the same thing with the new 9-5. The large Saab will come from Russelsheim for a pre-determined period and the buyer will get to do more or less their own thing at Trollhattan with the 9-1 and new 9-3. The pieces are now starting to fit.

  -June 24th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
• Tompa said:
  

  Adrian. The line about the Astra in with the Cosmo package or the OPC was not realy a question. I Don´t think they are crap. I think they are realy sweet cars. And the OPC has got the power output that the 9-3 Aero should have had from the beginning. Look to the future.. The next generation Astra OPC will probably have the Haldex 4 as a standard.. That car will put the competition under some real preasure. Ok, the current Astra is not as as solid as the A3.. But it shure is as good as the Golf or the C30.

  Regarding Citroën.. The C6 is an attempt to produce a luxury or rather Premium Plus vehicle.. Price for the base model C6 170HDi is 41.370 Euros. A Mercedes E-Klasse 220 CDi 170hp is 41.055… I don´t love Mercedes.. But a higher price for the C6.. Isn´t that streching it a bit? They DO think they are the Premium brand of the two PSA brands..

  -June 24th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
• Adrian said:
  

  Since we don’t get either “Cosmo” or “OPC” badges on Astras in the UK, you’ll excuse me for not quite understanding… A quick comparison of .de and .co.uk suggests the “Cosmo” (I thought that was a Mazda?) is roughly what we get as the SRi, and the OPC our VXR. They are still, when it comes down to it, Astras - and the basic Astra package has been FAR from warmly received by the press, whilst those hot versions _really_ haven’t been warmly received. The truth as far as the general market’s concerned - at least here - is that they’re nowhere near as good as the equivalent Focus, never mind the Golf. Same with the Vectra/Mondeo/Passat.

  I broadly agreed with the point about the C6. Much as I love it, it doesn’t fit with the rest of the range, and it _certainly_ doesn’t fit with how the brand as a whole is marketed in the UK.

  -June 25th, 2008 at 12:10 am
• David S. said:
  

  Guys, I don’t know if you realize this, but the Turbo X (both SS and SC) is included in the 72-hour sale.

  If there’s anybody in NA who has the money and hasn’t got their grubby hands on one yet, they should.

  -June 25th, 2008 at 12:12 am
• MarkoA said:
  

  I don´t count 9-2X as a Saab. Not even a semi Saab. Actually it had nothing Saab in it. It doesn´t count when were talking about possible collaboration of Saab and Subaru. I know, I know, many of you now disagree with me.
  But to me it was just very desperate move to try get something out of the name Saab. The car itself might be good as it is, but it simply ain´t Saab. Just like 9-7X, which actually might be closer when you look at the interior.
  9-6X remains mystery..

  -June 25th, 2008 at 12:37 am
• Tedjs said:
  

  If GM is thinking that small cars represent low profit margins then they really are not thinking clearly right now. Automotive News had an interesting story recently on how Honda dealers here in the USA are struggling to get Fit’s and Civics’ in their inventory to satisfy consumer demand for small fuel efficient cars.

  (Some) Honda dealers in this area are getting near sticker price for these cars and people are buying them hand over fist. How does that not make money?

  Since the Astra was also mentioned in this post it is unfortunate also that Automotive News reported that Saturn dealers here in the US also have (had) a 306 day supply of Astra’s (as of June 1st) while Civics’ are at a reported 20 day supply. The automatic equipped Civic gets 36mpg on the highway compared to the 30mpg the Astra gets with its lackluster 4 speed automatic. USA Today summed up the Astra nicely last Friday: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2008-06-19-saturn-astra_N.htm. A cool little car that has handling, but not the power to match.

  Consumers are clearly looking for the best cars that get the best fuel economy, and if the Astra had come to the US with a more fuel efficient/powerful powertrain it may have been selling better. Funny how you could compare a Chevrolet Cobalt to both Saab and Saturn here: The Cobalt XFE sold in the USA gets a fuel efficient 2.2L Ecotec, that with some variable valve timing magic gets 36 mpg highway rating which might help the Astra, while the Cobalt SS gets a healthy DI turbocharged engine that should probably have been bolted in the 9-3 by now. Especially now that they turbo V6 in the XWD Aero has been ‘boosted’ to respectable power levels.

  Not that Saturn’s are Saab’s, but in my experience – people I talk to (and I talk to a lot of would be car buyers) have a similar perception of both brands in that they know nothing about them in terms of product, and perceive both brands as being unreliable. Saturn’s are generally referred to as cheap plastic cars and Saab’s are considered to be undependable and extremely expensive to repair.

  Unfortunately as well many students entering our program for the 2008-09 academic year are working at Honda and Toyota dealers because that is who is hiring. While GM and other domestics are closing stores these dealers and their service departments are thriving.

  -June 25th, 2008 at 1:00 am
• Adrian said:
  

  “A cool little car that has handling, but not the power to match.” - Odd, the exact opposite seems to be the press opinion of the Astra VXR over here - far too much power for the chassis to cope with.

  -June 25th, 2008 at 1:15 am
• Bernard said:
  

  “Ok, the current Astra is not as as solid as the A3.. But it sure is as good as the Golf or the C30.”

  That’s weird, given that the A3 and Golf are the exact same car. The only differences are equipment levels and the fact that the A3 is somewhere between the Golf and Jetta in length.

  -June 25th, 2008 at 1:41 am
• MarkoA said:
  

  “That’s weird, given that the A3 and Golf are the exact same car”

  I disagree. Platform / engine sharing doesn´t make them exact same car. Handling is better - on a golf GT/GTi.

  -June 25th, 2008 at 3:49 am
• Tedjs said:
  

  Adrian -

  All we have over here in the Astra is a 1.8L Ecotec. Not that exciting at all. The 2.0L Ecotec in the VXR might be similar to the unit used in the Cobalt as the torque curve looks very familiar to me.

  Nice that their is an Astra ‘Sport Hatch’ model as well, although I will keep my 9-3 SportCombi, thank you.

  At any rate, hopefully the 9-X makes it to market here in America. Clearly Americans are shifting to smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles. If GM would spend some advertising dollars now on the 2.0T SportCombi that might make sense to a lot of drivers at $4.00+ a gallon who are looking for something that is relatively fuel efficient and has decent cargo space.

  -June 25th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
• 2-don said:
  

  I agree, that Sport Combi needs a little more advertising! I showed a co-worker a 9-3 brochure and loved it! She had no idea SAAB made “NEW” cars! She thought my 02 9-3 hatchback was the last SAAB they made! She is trading in her Jetta for a Combi.

  -June 25th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
• Scott G said:
  

  Swade,

  You mention that GM may not offer Employee Pricing on the 9-3. I pulled up the 2009 9-3 pricing this morning and they show the employee pricing.

  -June 26th, 2008 at 2:24 am
• swade (Author) said:
  

  Scott, I can’t remember the exact terms of the decision and I can’t find it in a quick look through my inbox, but the intel was very solid and subsequently backed up by another dealer in comments here.

  It may have been that it’s available for direct employees, but not for wider family of those people - but i’m guessing there. I’ll have a better look for the email tonight (getting ready for work now).

  -June 26th, 2008 at 7:15 am

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