SaabUSA sued over engine sludge
A lot of people have argued with SaabUSA about their engine having sludge-related problems. One woman in the US has decided to take the argument to court.
Engine sludge was an ongoing problem for the early models of the Saab 9-5 and certain models of the Saab 9-3, too. I don’t think anyone would dispute that. Susan Angell’s argument isn’t about whether sludge was the cause of the problem. She contends that SaabUSA knew all along and covered up the sludge problem.
Saab knew about the defects and concealed them to protect its profit, Angell claimed. She is asking for free inspections and replacement of damaged parts, restitution for all engine repairs and profit derived from Saab’s alleged wrongful conduct, according to the complaint.
Angell is looking to start a class action, which wll make Steve Shannon and his crew happy, I’m sure.
I know Saab didn’t make life easy for sludge complainants, with an insistence that service schedules were followed to the letter and by their approved personnel (regardless of their knowledge of Saab engines, or lack thereof), but I don’t know if Ms Angell can prove that they covered it up. I wasn’t up with this issue when it was at it’s height, so I can’t comment too much, but suffice to say it’ll be interesting to watch.
Should she succeed, of course, Saab will up to their eyeballs in complaints. They need this like they need a hole in their heads.
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Thanks to WooDz for the tip!
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Saab started modifying the crankcase ventilation to correct the problem in october 1999 and they had done several modifications on it before they issued the 8 year warrenty in 2005. So they knew about it and tried to be as quite about it as they could.
Beleive me there is more to this story. Saab is not sweeping it under the rug. The question lies in does she have records of her oil changes and how often were they done and where. I have seen a few of these cases and the customers who have records and especialy the ones who did the work at the dealer have not had problems getting Saab to fix the problem. I have seen a couple of cases of neglect from the customer and when asked for proof of oil changes the receipts look a little fishy.
I’m a little distressed by this.
First of all, Swade had this earlier sludge article which indicated that Saab required that the owner had used only oil filters bought from Saab. This sounds like a devious means of not covering cars serviced by their owners, or serviced at independent shops. These people tend not to buy their filters from Saab, but the filters they buy are probably just as good or better.
Secondly, very few people have complete records. Many people buy their Saabs used, and they rarely are able to acquire complete records. I did a Google search and found many instances of people complaining about not being covered when they had their cars serviced regularly, even at Saab dealers.
It sure isn’t like the old Saab. When they provided a lifetime warranty on their 2-cycle engines, they even replaced one where a guy was racing and put his car into a lake, destroying the engine! Of course, they never meant to cover that, but didn’t have enought “outs” in their warranty language.
I hope this doesn’t give Saab a black eye.
I’m a touch curious about the legal theory underlying the lawsuit. Manufacturers are strictly liable for safety issues, and have long-term liability for defects that causes emissions non-compliance. But otherwise, they are typically only liable for warranty claims.
If the suit claims that Saab is denying warranty claims without justification — that is, it is legally testing the idea that Saab can require proof of all oil changes prior to warranty replacement of a sludged engine, and other requirements, for example — OK, that makes sense. I’m skeptical of the likelihood of success of such a claim (there is a known relationship between lack of oil changes and sludge, Saab’s requirements are not arbitrary), but fine I get the theory.
But any other theory seems outlandish to me. Most of the cars affected by the sludge issue are now out of warranty. I have a hard time seeing any viable legal claim for out-of-warranty cars on a non-safety, non-emissions compliance issue.
I’ll have to see if I can find the actual complaint online somewhere.
Crud, I found the case here (http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-madce/case_no-1:2008cv11201/case_id-116701/),
but a subscription to PACER is required to get the details.
Plaintiff: Susan B. Angell
Defendant: SAAB Automobile AB, Saab Cars USA, Inc. and General Motors Corporation
Case Number: 1:2008cv11201
Filed: July 15, 2008
Court: Massachusetts District Court
Office: Boston Office [ Court Info ]
County: Middlesex
Presiding Judge: Judge Douglas P. Woodlock
Nature of Suit: Contract - Contract Product Liability
Cause: 28:1332 Diversity-Product Liability
Jurisdiction: Diversity
Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff
I’m new at this sludge business…
does this affect ALL the 9-5 engines?
I have the 3.0t V6, and though I don’t have too much of a complaint, I still want to know what to look out for, and the symptoms, as this is still a terrible situation and I may have already dealt with this issue (being that I did have some problems with the oil going into the sparkplugs at start up one time, but I just tried different sparkplugs and everything seemed fine.. -long story). I just hope that wasnt oil sludge.. I spent so much money :’( ugh.
I’m a technician at a SAAB dealership and I have seen no signs of SAAB covering up this problem. There are bullitins addressing engine sludge issues and they have extended the engine warranty on these vehicles. As far as proving services, why should SAAB fix a blown up engine if the customer never changed the oil? Trust me, I’ve seen a lot of cars in my 15 years working on SAABs that have not been serviced. We sometimes see cars that have not had the oil changed in over 20,000 miles! Why the hell should SAAB help these people out?
@Saabdoc: So how is 20,000 at lot??? My wife’s 9-5 2.3T owner’s manual says every 15,000 miles…. Most of the free world has moved past the Jiffy Lube Oil Change Interval
saabdoc: And why the hell should be people, who were not told from start to do maintenance at authorized workshops and keep all the records, left on their own with blown engine ? If they wrote in big letters in the user manual that if you got to non-official workshop or cannot prove the work done, SAAB will not accept any warranty and out-of-warranty liability. You can guess how soon it would end up at court …
If SAAB would issue a global warning at the time of first bulletin (and crankcase ventilation kit) to keep all receipts and stick to authrized shop there would happen be some things :
1. People would be carreful about throwing out their old receipts
2. People would go more to dealers for servicing and consider risks doing it on their own.
3. The resale value of SAABs without paperwork will drop. Fleet cars come up usualy only with service book as invoices are kept for accounting.
4. DIY people would consider other used cars then SAABs…
Now you have a lot of people with used cars out of this warranty and only some of them would be in place for misusing it. So instead of people (from both parts of this unfortunate group) being happy with out-of-warranty service, you will have unstisfied customer which probably never return to SAABs.
All you are implying is presumption of guilt, “if you don’t have accepted paperwork, you have never changed the oil”
My Viggen will be 8years in August, I have it since 2005 and after one year I have started to change oil myself. I use official GM filters and retail packaging of Mobil1 every 10-12.000km . Its more flexible this way and I’m sure what I put in there - around these parts is common for mechanics in big shops to leave in some old oil and sell that part of new one as side ‘income’, also I have all the time I need to leave the oil come out and not to rush it.
Anyways according to SAAB standarts, if it would sludge till August, I’m preaty much fu***ed. I bought it from a big dealer in Germany, I serviced first year in the only authorized dealer here, got some invitations for recalls like IDM, dealer installed the latest PCV fix, but guess what ? Nobody ever cared to inform me about the sludge directly or the extended warranty conditions … actually it was an independent workshop where they proposed to check the oil pan and why, and they told me this even when according to this I should be running from them to the warranty haven of dealership …
PS: I have been through many cars to know this is nothing SAAB specific, the manufacturers do this kind of hiding games
When I sent this link to Swade I really didn’t know what to think.
On one side most within Saab are aware of the sludge situation that can occur in the 2.3 litre engines and to a degree the 2.0 versions too. However; as long as the vehicle has been serviced at the correct intervals and the sump checked and cleaned if required I cannot see any reason to worry. I own a Viggen and my main concern on purchase was sludge. so I had an inspection made when I bought the car. during the inspection it became apparent that the car had been neglected over the years, which led to the engine being practically overhauled and ended in an extra layout of €5,500. Although the dealer who sold the car helped with costs by reducing my purchase price significantly at no point did I consider a lawsuit against Saab for their engine commonality. (Do you like that.. ‘Commonality’ it’s called marketing talk). Anyway; I can’t see this case going Susan Angell’s way but this is in America, where I guess given a good enough lawyer anything is achievable.
I still remember the case where a customer sued Winabago because they didn’t specifically mention that with cruise control activated the vehicle will NOT steer itself. Some of you know of this case but for those who don’t.
The driver set the C/Ctrl and then thought it would be nice to sit in the back and have a cup of coffee.
Needless to say he didn’t have chance to finish his drink…
There is a web page made by someone in Sweden with more technical info about this (text in English):
http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/information_ccv_en.shtml
Thanks, ctm- that makes much more sense of the whole array of modifications and kits that exist.
Woodz are you serious about the Winabago? I remember a while back someone sued McDonalds because their coffee was too hot and it burned them! They won that one, come on! There should be a common sense law! But who would enforce it? Certainly not our president ;-)!!!
I change the oil on both of my 9-3s. Is there anything I should keep an eye out for?
If you change your own oil, that is fine. You had to buy oil and a filter. You have a receipt. Keep it and log the date and miles of your own service. I have seen papers from mom and pop shops which are legit and I have seen receipts form a mom and pop for 5 oil changes and the reciept numbers were in exact order. If Saab is not paying the claim there is a good reason.
2-don: check some articles from this guy http://www.saabpros.com/saab/nines/
If you see sludge as in pictures of the pickup area of oilpan coming out on oil change, it would be a good idea to check the pan and picup if its not clogged.
saabrep: Now I know that, but two years ago I didn’t and nobody told me
As of the receipts I keep most for the duration of warranty, for articles of consumption (toners, videotapes, … oil ) I throw them out about twice per year. Otherwise I would not have enough space to store them. And there are many people who even keep them at all.
Steven: The cars with the 15,000 mile oil change intervals are not the ones with the sludge issue. Its the earlier 9-5 and 9-3’s that used a semi-synthetic oil with 10,000 mile intervals. So going to 20,000 miles is a lot. I also wan’t to say we have done several of these engines at our dealership and SAAB has not rejected any claims.
My wife’s 9-3 was one of the ones offered the eight-year warranty, but I believe it’s eight years from the date of manufacture, and since she has a 2001 9-3 I’m guessing it’s either very close to expiring or already expired.
I live in a hot climate and my wife often drives the car in stop-and-go traffic for drives less than 15 miles. Of course in Los Angeles traffic it takes an hour to travel those 15 miles. I’m not kidding. So my wife’s car is much more susceptible to the “sludging” issue than most.
I always worried anyway because I do all my own oil changes. I make sure I use the best filter (Mobil 1) and the best oil (Mobil 1 fully-synthetic 0W-30). There is NO WAY I’m paying the dealer’s exorbitant rate for a simple oil change. I even have my major service done by my Saab specialist indie mechanic. The dealer charges like $600 for the major maintenance!
So, though I change the oil every 5,000 miles or so and use the best products I probably would have been declined the warranty by Saab.
Papluh - There typically is a clause in the Owner’s Manual(or Warranty Manual) that states that the Manufacturer will not warranty work done by unauthorized shops. In addition, there usually is a clause that states that the Manufacturer will not be responsible for warranty claims on a vehicle not serviced by an authorized shop.
1985 Gripen: How much is your dealer charging for an oil change? Here at the dealership in Oceanside CA, were charging $54.99 for a full sythetic oil change and $44 for semi-synthetic. Our dealership loses money on every oil change especially on the 9-3 sport sedans that use a little more the 6 quarts.
Gripen - That’s why I dislike some dealerships/manufacturer’s approach to servicing. If their prices were more reasonable, more people would use them.
For instance, when you buy a new Honda here, you can buy life time oil changes for around $200 which is transferable to the next Owner even. If you don’t, their oil changes rates are very reasonable ( <$30) and you usually can drop in anytime.
Saabdoc: Saab of Sherman Oaks charges $70 ($69.99) for semi-synthetic. Also, since they have like only one or two bays and one Saab mechanic (it’s primarily a Cadillac dealer, but also HUMMER) an appointment has to be made in advance. It’s my wife’s car and she needs it at work so I end up doing the job on the weekend. Five quarts of Mobil 1 0W-30 fully-synthetic and a filter (sometimes I buy the overpriced black GM AC-Delco filter from the dealer’s parts department, sometimes I spring for the overpriced Mobil 1 filter) runs me much less than that and I’m satisfied the job is done right and when it’s convenient for me.
I made the mistake of taking her car down to The Lube Center (it was raining and I needed the oil change done ASAP) once and it cost me close to $100 when all was said and done.
The point is, I have receipts from all the times I’ve had someone work on my car, but they’re not at all organized and I’m darned sure I don’t have all the receipts from the times I bought a filter and oil from the local auto supply place. So I don’t have a proper paper trail. Not that it matters as my warranty’s just about up, but I don’t like that it sounds like if you don’t have your documentation down to a “tee” Saab will assume that you’re trying to pull a fast one and decline you the warranty.
No time to read through all the comments, but I believe that this lawsuit will be seen as frivolous and dismissed shortly.
This problem WAS addressed by Saab eearly in the process, whether they should have issued a full recall is up for debate, but there certainly wasn’t a cover up.
One thing I see wrong with this suit… How could Saab cover this up to protect their profits when there is little or no evidence of Saab profits in the first place?!?!?
@saabdoc: You may be mistaken. My wife’s car was called in for the “Saab Customer Satisfaction Campaign” to modify the crankcase ventilation to help prevent the sludging issue.
@e&g: I don’t really think this fails under the definition of recall in the U.S. A recall is issued when a motor vehicle or item of motor vehicle equipment (including tires) does not comply with a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard or when there is a safety-related defect in the vehicle or equipment. This person’s lawyer may argue that if the engine sludged-up, it could lose power and/or stall while driving and could therefore, by his definition, be considered a safety-related defect… to which others would argue, lack of following a proper maintenance schedule would exclude this allegded issue, but that is why they file lawsuits.
Here is the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Bulletin number for this issue: #10020715.
“NOISE FROM THE TIMING CHAIN AND OIL SLUDGE IN THE ENGINE.”
Make / Models : Model/Build Years :
SAAB / 9-3 1999-2003
SAAB / 9-5 1998-2003
Date of Bulletin : OCT 01, 2006
To “Ronald”:
your car’s engine is not among the engines which may have a sludge problem. The cars which may have a sludge problem are four cylinder (not six) engines equipped with Trionic 7 motor management system.
And hey, guess why I have NG900 & 9-3SS and haven’t had any OG9-3 (2000-2003) or 9-5? Yep, I presume you already guessed it
The engines of 9-3SS don’t have, as far as I’ve heard, any oil sludge problems.