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UPDATE below!
——
Our very own 1985 Gripen happened to be doing some work in the San Joaquin Valley in the last few days and was heading home when this happened:
I was driving southbound on SR 99 from Visalia toward Los Angeles, approaching Tulare at 9:10 a.m. on 28 May, 2008 (California time) and I came upon a slower-driving truck, driving the same direction as I was. The truck was a GM heavy-duty pickup truck with a professional-grade car transport trailer (the kind that mounts in the bed, not below the bumper) towing behind.
On the trailer were two Saab 9-3 2.0T SportCombis, one blue and one gray. Both had Swedish license plates, one was tag number FYP 916 and the other FYP 919 (perhaps one of our Swedish friends could look-up those tag numbers for more details like ownership and powerplant).
Both had the Euro-spec taillights. Neither one had any damage or anything, but they didn’t look like polished “show cars” either. I couldn’t tell what model-year they were as I didn’t see the front-end and I can’t tell the difference between a pre-2008 and a 2008 SportCombi solely from the rear view.
I had to exit the freeway in Tulare shortly after I spotted these cars to fill up at the only E85 station open to the public in the State of California I’ve never filled up at yet (I’ve been to both the others) so I didn’t have much time to check them out before my exit came-up. I was swerving all over the road before I exited though trying to reach for my camera, but it was out-of-reach in the back seat. D’oh!
So, we have two Swedish-plated SportCombis, badged as 2.0T, moving around California. Whassup GM?
Gripen has his own wild-eyed speculations thoughts, as follows:
What if…
1) they’re testing the BioPower 9-3 in the U.S.? You might remember that back in August in Washington, D.C. during the Saab U.S. 2008 9-3 media debut, Steve Shannon told me that Saab would be bringing BioPower over to the U.S. in “early 2009″. The hurdles that have to be jumped before then is government testing to ensure they meet regulations and also the cars need to be tested in extreme cold climes as well as extremely hot ones. The examples he gave were “from the northern reaches of Canada to the deserts of Arizona”. When asked what the delay has been so far he told me it was a lack of engineering resources within GM to conduct the testing.
If these cars were being tested in Canada and were en route to Arizona, where I saw them would make sense. Heading south down SR 99 they could have taken SR 58 eastbound to US 40 eastbound to Arizona. I can’t think of a reason why these cars would have been on CA 99 for any other reason.
And/Or:
2) Maybe these cars are XWD-equipped 2.0T 9-3s on their way for U.S. testing. The XWD-equipped 2.0T is supposed to go on sale in MY2009.
Personally, I’ll vote for option 2. At least that’s what I hope it was in terms of what they might bring to market.
As much as I like BioPower (which is very much), I’m not sure that it’s release in the US right now would help Saab at all. The ethanol industry needs to get it’s fuel sourced from friendly and sustainable methods prior to a car that’s based on it becoming a hit there.
A 2.0T SportCombi with XWD…… well, the 2.0T makes up the vast majority of Saab sales already and people will be itching to pick up that variant with XWD.
Out of those two options, I’d prefer to see them pouring resources into XWD any day of the week insofar as the US market is concerned.
Any other thoughts or suggestions?
UPDATE – plate information has come in via cj in comments, and it appears the vehicle is a BioPower tester.
Thanks cj!
——
I should note that those two options presented above aren’t mutually exclusive, so it’s not a case of “Oh, it’s a Biopower. I guess the XWD thing aint happening”.
XWD for the 2.0T model is definitely happening in the US market in 2009. Take it to the bank. The fact that they’re testing BioPower as well would indicate that that’s going to be another newsworthy item in 2009.
I don’t think it’s going to bring out firecrackers or marching bands the way E85 is perceived right now, but it’s a good thing.
-
35 responses so far ↓
1 1985 Gripen
// May 29, 2008 at 9:55 am
I appreciate that Swade had to edit my typically long-winded e-mail but a couple of points that were trimmed-out I feel are important to note here:
Usually when GM brings Saabs out to California for whatever reason (like for the 60th Anniversary event in San Diego, for example) the cars are N.A.-spec (that’s “North American”, not “normally-aspirated”) and have Michigan Manufacturer plates, not Euro-spec with Swedish plates. Why would there be Euro-spec Swedish-plated 2.0T Saabs in California? What’s the difference between a N.A. 2.0T and a Swedish 2.0T? BioPower and/or XWD.
2 cj
// May 29, 2008 at 9:56 am
FYP 916:
Tekniska data
Effekt kW: 129 Antal passagerare (passengers): 4
Växellåda(gearbox: MANUELL
Max släpvagnsvikt :
Max släpvagnsvikt B-behörighet (towing maximum kg): 1410
Max lastvikt (cargo kg): 460
Däckdimension fram (tiredementions): Däckdimension bak: 215/55 R16 93V
Kaross: Kombi (03)
Tjänstevikt (weight): 1630
Totalvikt (total weight): 2090
Längd (lenght): 465 Bredd (with cm): 177
Drivmedel (fuel): BENSIN (petrol) Alternativt drivmedel: ETANOL
Skyltformat fram: EU-ENRADIG Skyltformat bak: EU-ENRADIG
3 Robin M
// May 29, 2008 at 9:58 am
Now-a-days my camera travels in the space between the seat and the door. Missed too many good things in the past. Gripen, can you remember seeing side strips in your excitment? Robin.
4 cj
// May 29, 2008 at 9:58 am
The 2nd one is the same but with automatic gearbox.
Not that good with engines, but 129kw, is that not a very small engine?
5 cj
// May 29, 2008 at 10:04 am
And yes, there where 2008s. Looks like the ethanol trace is the winner
6 1985 Gripen
// May 29, 2008 at 10:06 am
Sorry Robin, I can’t remember. At the same time as fretting about my offramp coming up and trying to remember the license plates and fishing for my camera I didn’t notice.
I’m sure when I finally see that UFO in the middle of nowhere I’ll have my camera on hand next time to catch it!
cj: any info on the owner? Is it Saab?
At least we can tell that they ARE BioPower from the info cj provided. Whether they’re all-wheel-drive-equipped is another matter.
129 kW is 173 horsepower. I think that’s about right for the 2.0T running on gasoline. On E85 it’s 200 horsepower.
So it appears there are BioPower 2.0Ts in California for some reason.
7 swade
// May 29, 2008 at 10:12 am
Thanks a bunch, cj. The post has been updated for the new information.
8 1985 Gripen
// May 29, 2008 at 10:21 am
I just hope Saab has the 2.0T 9-3 w/ XWD on dealership lots before the northern hemisphere winter this time. No more of this “2009-1/2″ stuff where the car hits dealer lots AFTER car buyers would be clamoring for it in the inclement weather months.
I think that the 2.0T w/ XWD could be a big seller in historically-strong Saab sales regions which see “weather” such as the U.S. northeast, Colorado, and Pacific Northwest. It should do fairly well in Canada as well, but I wonder if all the Saab nuts in Canada already bought their Turbo-X!
9 Greg Abbott
// May 29, 2008 at 10:24 am
You know I feel a bit sorry for SaabUSA. They can’t even sneak a couple of BioPower test cars into the US without a Saab blogger finding out about it.
BioPower in the US is long overdue. They’ll sell like hotcakes in the Midwest.
10 1985 Gripen
// May 29, 2008 at 10:31 am
Greg: I’ve been wondering what the odds are that I’d come across those cars being shipped across California. It’s not like they were in a major metropolitan area at the time. They were out in the sticks!
If Saab USA wanted to keep this secret they should have put them in a closed trailer, or at least covered them with a tarp or car cover or something. Or removed the plates while transporting them. Then again, I still would have noticed the Euro-spec taillights…
11 joemama
// May 29, 2008 at 10:41 am
Greg – What makes you so sure they will see like “hotcakes?” Is BioFuel cheaper in the midwest because so much corn is grown there?
Gripen – I agree about XWD. Saab was supposed to debut the system last fall and they really missed a lot of sales because of it. Let’s hope it is released this fall before the weather gets bad.
12 turbin
// May 29, 2008 at 10:47 am
“I don’t think it’s going to bring out firecrackers”
escpecially around the ethanol!
13 Trent
// May 29, 2008 at 11:03 am
Gripen, Just a little detail but was the “T” capital or lower case? As biopower is currently only availble in the smaller output engine. If this was a capital “T” then SAAB maybe working on biopowering the “HOT” motor.
14 1985 Gripen
// May 29, 2008 at 11:08 am
joemama: I’m sure E85 is cheaper in the midwest as most of the corn-producing states subsidize it. However, I don’t know if the price is 30% lower than gasoline in order to make it fiscally-viable.
The national average price of a gallon of E85 is currently $3.317. Comparing apples to apples (taking energy content into account) that is equivalent to $4.365/gal of gasoline. The current average price of a gallon of regular unleaded gasoline is $3.944.
I was hoping as the price of gasoline rises the price of E85 would rise more slowly, due to the fact it only contains 15% gasoline. However, the price of E85 seems to rise just as fast as gasoline, meaning it’s still not economically-viable when the decreased fuel economy is factored-in.
15 1985 Gripen
// May 29, 2008 at 11:11 am
Trent: I’m pretty sure it was a lower-case t. I’m sorry I don’t remember for sure. I was trying to do too many things at once (search for a camera, find a pad of paper and pen to write down the tag number, and try not to kill myself driving while preparing to exit the freeway). If anyone from GM/Saab is reading this, ask your driver about the guy who flew-up to catch-up, then slammed on the brakes to get a better look, then swerved off the freeway to go to just one of THREE E85 stations in the state open to the public (the fuel those cars can run on!). That freak was me. What were the odds!?!?
16 cj
// May 29, 2008 at 11:41 am
Yes, Saab automobil in trollhattan is the registered owner. Not much other information…
17 joemama
// May 29, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Gripen – my thoughts exactly.
Forget BioPower. But I’m worried Saab will concentrate on that instead of bringing diesels to the US.
If that happens, potential Saab customers will find their way to VW and BMW diesels.
18 Troll96
// May 29, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Bravo to 1985 Gripen and cj!! Very impressive sleuthing!
The only remaining mystery is why Saab bothered to ship the cars out to California where most people can’t buy E-85 unless they’re willing to drive several hundred miles for each fillup. I got it!! That’s why they were being towed!!
19 1985 Gripen
// May 29, 2008 at 12:22 pm
joemama: I think that diesels will flop here. You can’t change the way people think. Look at combis and hatchbacks. For some reason most Americans don’t care for them. They make logical sense and European buyers seem to “get it”, but Americans just have a closed mind. Note that the BMW 1-series will only sell as a sedan here. Americans have a bad opinion of diesels. I don’t see that changing just because the price of fuel rises. I think if Americans want to replace their gas-guzzlers they’re more liable to go buy a gasoline-electric hybrid than a diesel.
These cars already sell for a premium price, and you add-in the premium of a diesel just so people can save money on fuel costs? I don’t think so. The price of diesel in the U.S. is rising as quickly as the price of gasoline. They’re both made from petroleum, which is selling for around $130 a barrel right now and it’s speculated may go as high as $200 a barrel. I saw reported on CNN this morning that for each dollar the price of light sweet crude rises equates to around 2-1/2 cents per gallon rise in the price of gasoline. $200 a barrel petroleum equates to $5.69/gal gasoline. You can bet Saab will be kicking themselves for not offering a hybrid and introducing a mid-size CUV at that time!
20 1985 Gripen
// May 29, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Troll96: Due to the route they were taking I’m speculating the cars came down from Canada into the U.S. on Interstate 5, split-off the 5 to the 99 in Northern California on their way to SR 58 and then Interstate 40 to Arizona. I’d be willing to bet they were undergoing cold weather testing this past winter in Canada (northern British Columbia, or perhaps the Yukon Territories even) and are headed to Arizona just in time for summer.
It just boggles my mind that I was in that odd place at that time to intercept this shipment. The myriad of things I could have done differently that morning which would have caused me to miss it. Really weird.
21 Danni
// May 29, 2008 at 12:37 pm
In this part of the world diesel gasoil now for the first time cost more then petrol (whether 93 RON or 95 RON) but cheaper then 98 RON and 101.6 RON. The saving part of diesel gasoil is in the mileage attained, but traditionally diesel gasoil vehicles are higher specced and hence cost more then their petrol counterparts, though they tend to be expensive in terms of maintenance. Is this the same State side?
22 1985 Gripen
// May 29, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Danni: I’m no diesel expert, but on the price thing I can just tell you that nationally (average) the price of a U.S. gallon of regular unleaded gasoline (91-92 RON) in the U.S. is $3.944 a gallon (still a steal compared to the ROW, but when you consider how drastically percentage-wise the price has increased in the short period of time it’s crippling to our economy) whereas our diesel fuel is averaging $4.778/gal. That’s a premium of about 17% over regular unleaded. When you figure the increased fuel economy of diesel, diesel is still less expensive per mile, but people don’t typically consider that. They look at the number on the big board at the fueling station.
Diesel fuel in the U.S. is more expensive than regular, mid, premium, and even E85 after accounting for energy content.
Unfortunately unless I’m mistaken all Saabs require premium unleaded fuel now.
23 turbin
// May 29, 2008 at 2:07 pm
There has been some recent upset about diesel here. Alot of private buyers have picked up diesel cars to save on fuel. Unfortunately the higher price of diesel vehicles versus petrol combined with the increased diesel fuel price means that it can take ten years or more before you break even on the extra investment in diesel. On top of which diesel emissions are lower but highly toxic emissions are higher. The high torque is great but over a very short rev range. With Saabs already being turbo-torquey, even that turbo-diesel torque advantage is limited. Just does not add up so why are some Americans so hot for diesel??
24 turbin
// May 29, 2008 at 2:27 pm
To ram that point home, here in Oz the 1.9TiD is $2500 more expensive than the same specced car with the 2.0t. Based on the current Oz fuel prices you would need to drive a minimum 58,500km / 36,500miles (auto) or a whopping 83,000km / 52,000miles (manual) before you recoup the inital difference in purchase price. Servicing costs are higher for diesels as well due to filters and seals that need changing regularly. Believe me I’ve looked into it, travelling up to 30,000km a year.
25 1985 Gripen
// May 29, 2008 at 2:27 pm
turbin: I’m guessing it’s because diesel fuel is still cheaper per-mile, but considering that the vehicle costs more as you mention it might not make the most economic sense.
I was watching CNN this morning (as I mentioned earlier) and during their “money” segment they said they’ve been hearing from a lot of viewers the question of when it’s best to trade-in their current vehicle for a hybrid. The answer was only if you double your current vehicle’s fuel economy does it make fiscal sense considering the hybrid premium.
26 Mats
// May 29, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Me and the wife is just in the process of selling her 99 Opel Astra, she will instead drive my 2003 Passat and I’ll get another car to drive. The options I’m looking at is either a 02-03 Golf TDI or similar year 9-5 that will be converted to run E85. Diesel fuel right now is US$2,3 per litre and regular 95 RON is $2,21 and E85 is 1,35.
The tax difference between the cars here in Sweden are quite big, the 9-5 would cost $366 per year and the TDI would cost 833 per year.
I drive about 25 000km per year, the TDI would average about 6 litres/100km (40 MPG) and the 9-5 about 11 litres/100km (22MPG).
Just looking at the fuel and tax costs the 9-5 is currently about $250 cheaper per year…
27 Trent
// May 29, 2008 at 4:00 pm
When I bought my car a couple of months ago, I did the calcs, and found that using the avaerage combined milage as printed in the SAAB handbooks I would have to do 250,000Km before I would break even on diesel vs petrol engine. When I facted in interest into the equation on the extra money, it wen up to around 400,000km. It was not worth it especialy when the petrol engines are so much more enjoyable to drive. diesel only work if it is signifacantly cheaper then petrol or you are doing a lot of highway driving where diesel have the advantage in fuel economy. The cost of diesel is worse now in Australia, I filled up yesterday for $1.37 lt and diesel was $1.76lt.
28 MarkoA
// May 29, 2008 at 4:54 pm
I´d like to point out a detail in the diesel discussion. I bought 9-3 TTiD, but not only because of lower consumption. I have to pay additional diesel tax, and it´ll almost compensate the savings that I´ll get by driving diesel.
But there´s something more. Driving a good diesel engine is a pleasure to some. Count me one of them. When you are using sub 3500rpm new TTiD feels quicker and more powerfull than 2.8v6t (255hp), due to faster spool up of turbo (virtually no lag). That´s the rev-band where I usyally drive. After 4000rpm diesel get´s out of breath.
And talking about consumpion; it´s very comfortable to drive a longer trip where you can drive over 1000km by one fill up. It´s like having over 100liter tank on a petrol turbo.
2009 BioPower to US, 2.0T XWD. Sounds good. 9-3XC version too. I really hope they´ll make diesel version too.
Though I know I´d feel bad too because I already bought FWD TTID and simply cannot replace it with XWD version so soon.
29 WooDz
// May 29, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Diesels will in general cost more that a gasoline equivalent up until a point. It’s well worth calculating cost and mileage over the period of time you expect to own the vehicle. The harder job will be factoring depreciation as although usually diesels have a higher residual value it’s quite hard getting hold of that information, especially when the engine is new.
————————-
To get back on topic, some people are still questioning the two cars.
CJ has given us the answers.
They were 2.0t Bio-power vehicles with 129kw / 175hp or 200hp running e85.
The good news is the vehicles are now being tested on American soil but we have had a similar topic before concerning Bio-Power, where the question was raised whether 175hp / 200hp would be enough to please the US Market?
The further speculation could be that it was easier to obtain a 175hp version but for 2009 Saab could introduce a 210hp / 225hp Bio-Power variant.
30 Mats
// May 29, 2008 at 5:00 pm
I agree with you Marko, I also prefer the low down torque of the diesel over a revy petrol engine in a daily driver car…
31 eriknystrom
// May 29, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Just for the heck of it, I compared the total weght of FYP916 that Gripen spotted with a 9-3 2.0t Vector Biopower at a dealer in Sweden ( MLF255).
FYP916 has a total weight of 2090 kg and MLF255 has 2030 kg.
I don’t know the weight of a Haldex system, but it should be more than 60 kg, right?
So, if that assumption is correct, there is no xwd on that spotted Saab.
32 Dan9-1
// May 29, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Swade Enough S’s in that title? Its like a tongue twister
33 rpg
// May 30, 2008 at 2:05 am
I have it on good authority from a Boston area dealer that XWD will be an option on the 2.0T 9-3s this fall when the MY09s arrive.
As for BioPower, why not make all US spec 9-3s BioPower like Mercedes did with the new C Class? All new C Class variants can run on E85.
34 1985 Gripen
// May 30, 2008 at 3:13 am
rpg: I hope your dealer is right, but if history tells us anything it’s that the dealers only know as much (and sometimes less) than we Saab aficionados do. Also, Saab can’t make all U.S. spec 9-3s BioPower. For some reason they’re not able to make a BioPower version of the 9-3 Aero (I’ve read it’s because of the lack of direct ignition on the V6) and I don’t think there’s even a BioPower version of the 9-5’s 2.3T in Sweden. The 2.3t, yes. But I think in N.A. we only get the capital T.
As for diesel economics, maybe it makes sense to buy a diesel if you’re buying new and plan to own the car for many more years than the typical car owner owns a car in order to pay off the initial premium. That being said, most people don’t own a car more than five years, I’m guessing, at least in the U.S. The second-hand buyer is going to expect the car to depreciate enough that the car no longer includes the diesel premium, meaning the depreciation rate would be steeper than say a hybrid.
With the price of fuel rising in the U.S. there’s a tight market for second-hand hybrids (especially ones in California with the carpool lane sticker which I’ve read fetches as much as a $3000 premium on used hybrids). Therefore the depreciation rate of a hybrid would be far less steep than that of a non-hybrid.
I really wish Saab were finally coming out with a hybrid rather than a CUV. I think it’d sell better and I’d even look at buying one!
35 Troll96
// May 30, 2008 at 8:20 am
We in the States do not have Sweden’s tax code to nudge buyers toward E-85, so it’s important that Saab have something more economical to offer (i.e. diesel) next year and beyond.
Recent history in the US market shows that VW and MB diesel cars fetch much more on resale than gassers. If Saab sold TTiDs here, that would help reduce the depreciation and increase the perceived value of their vehicles. In turn, that would induce more folks to buy Saabs when new instead of leasing them or picking them up used at rock bottom prices. On average, owners here keep their cars about 6 years. That figure has been steadily increasing, which is good for prospective diesel buyers, given 1985 Gripen’s analysis above.
In any event, a choice of BioPower, TTiD, and XWD in 2009 would go a long way toward building more excitement around the Saab brand.