Friday Early Snippets
Sorry for the lack of writing, but I heard something today that just completely knocked the wind out of me.
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This is the Saab 9-X BioHybrid on show at the Sexy Green Car Show at the Eden Project in Cornwall. There’s a short video about the show here at the BBC.
The Show starts on Friday 23rd (that’s today where I’m living) and runs to the 31st May.
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After my glimmer of hope earlier in the week, it looks like the Viggen will most likely be written off after all. The costings so far have come in at $14K and there’s a whole bunch of stuff that hasn’t been costed yet.
Looks like that What if…. list might come into play after all.
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Here’s your topic for the next few hours:
Can you possibly envisage a circumstance where it would make sense to launch a brand new modern Saab that isn’t turbocharged?
Please discuss.
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OK, so Swade now something we don’t…
Yes, if its a elektric car
simple: no.
A new non-turbocharged Saab?
It would have to be a hybrid or similar alternative engine technology.
Saab offering non-turbo charged vehicles?
Well is not like they’ve never done that before.
In Europe Saab offer a 1.8i however it is not the current 140hp version offered by OPEL. It’s still the old 125hp version.
However Swade I think you could be talking about the upcoming 9-4x which will have an all new 3.2 6 cyl. powertrain.
If it’s the 9-4X, then it wouldn’t be such a big deal I guess.
WooDz, interesting… Although a twin-turbocharged 3.2 6-cylinder sounds even better to me.
In my opinion, No. I do believe there will be engines in SAAB’s that do not offer turbo charging; however, somewhere in a particular vehicle line there would be a turbo charged engine.
This especially becomes important to GM given the new North America mandate that all vehicles in a particular brand must avg. 35 MPG. I believe you will see more TDI’s throughout the entire SAAB range of small to midsize cars and trucks…err…crossovers.
I believe the above mandate will force SAAB to get back to its roots from a power train standpoint. Turbo 4’s are made to give a car the fuel efficiency of a 4 cyl, with the power on reserve of a 6 cyl for performance. This will become increasingly important for GM over the course of the next several years.
And you heard it here first! The 9-4X will have a TDI and/or Turbo 4 with a mild hybrid power train. No confirmation on that…just my (dream) best guess.
A non-turbo Saab might be like TV without the remote control (Guess which country I’m from! Hint: America.) But yes, I could see a non-turbo Saab making sense on some levels. I would say anything 9-3 and up should be turbocharged and small displacement so they retain the alluring possibility of decent power and good fuel mileage. But a model below the 9-3 (9-1?) could get along with a non-turbo four cylinder. It wasn’t that long ago that “turbo” was the top end optional engine on Saabs, (NG900, 9000, etc etc.)
I honestly think they should bring the 9-1 back AS the 900, as a three door capacious hatchback with a standard 2.0L 16v non-turbo or a 2.0L 16v Turbo optional. I think that could work. But they might run into BMW 318ti syndrome, in which people don’t want to pay $25,000 for a slow, poorly equipped luxury car when they can get a GTI for less. There’s always that issue.
Hope you are doing OK, Swade!
What about an all electric “city car”?
Eden, Cornwall? Do those things go together? I know that Cornwall has its charm, but Eden??
About the turbo thing: if you are asking should there be no turbocharger available for a specific car, I think that the answer is no.
If you are asking should there be a normally-aspirated option for some models, I think that the answer is yes.
Turbos make a lot of sense now. However, there are plenty of applications where a turbocharger may not be as effective as it is on current cars burning gasoline. What if fuel supply changes to be cheaper or cleaner and the resulting fuel is much lower octane? What if cars get much smaller and space limitations dictate compromises?
The plug-in hybrid is something that certianly would reduce the effectiveness of a turbocharger simply because it reduces the impact of the internal combustion engine overall. That is, if the engine only provides 25% of the power used with the remainder coming from the electrical grid, how important is a turbocharger at that point?
Remain open to new ideas. They may actually work!!!
As I feel the 9-3 1,8i (Opel engine) that is sold in Sweden and other countries is totaly wrong. All Saabs must be turbocharged because it´s the Saab way and that together with direct injection it gives a better milage and more fun.
Hopefully Saab will have 6-8 gear DSG autos instead of normaly asperated autos soon to go together with 1,4t up to 3,6 liter TT engines.
ctm.. true
E-flex need not be turbo charged.
My wife does a 10km round trip to work, E-flex would be perfect for her.
(still think it’s the 9-4x that Swade it talking about though)
p.s. SWADE… have you rv’d an email from me in the last 24hrs?
Swade, Hope all is well. I hope the news wasn’t of the truly bad variety.
~P
PG: I think that the Viggen thing is what he’s referring to. At least I hope it’s something like that.
All Saabs should have a turbo (or 2), like all Subarus are 4wd, and all Toyotas look dull and boring.
The thing I don’t understand is why GM did not pop a turbo on the L52 and tuck it into the 9-7x. GM actually had a turbo 5 concept version; 315hp/315ft-lbs.
http://images.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0312_turbo_03_z.jpg
Saabs should be turbocharged because that’s the best technology available for an explosion engine and Saab always knew it.
So… only if suddenly explosion engines weren’t the best compromise to move a car by far!
4 wheel modules in each corner of the car, with 4 electric engines and 4-wheel steering… I could see an experimental Saab that way, I guess…
1st, Saab needs to update it’s 4-cylinders engines ASAP. GM’s 2.0L turbo LNF matches or outperforms all Saabs engines. What will happen to 9-3 sales when people figure out you can get better performance from a Chevy Cobalt???
Once the 4 cylinders are taken care of, then Saab will need to fix their V-6’s. The target here is Cadillac’s 3.6L Direct Injection with 305 HP. Alternatively, Saab can apply direct injection technology to the 2.8L turbo and beat the Cadillace mill.
Turbocharging fits in with their current “right-sizing” philosophy. Producing a vehicle without a turbo would contradict it.
I think that a much more interesting question is “Why is that car sitting in a fish pond?”
I cant understand why given the current energy landscape one would even consider a n/a engine rather than a turbo charged engine. Turbocharged engines have the ability to deliver 8 cylinder performance when required with the fuel consumption of a much smaller engine when not. Furthermore, a smaller turbocharged engine further bolsters fuel efficiency by being lighter which also has a positive impact on weight distrubution and handling. Save for the north american market, most people do not have such a fanatical relationship with engine displacement equating to speed or power. Granted that the US is the largest market, I feel it would be untrue of Saab to offer that lump of engine (3.2 v6) unless they can demonstrate that the current b235r or LNFI4 engines are less powerful and efficient per litre.
If it is the case that Saab truly wants a non-turbocharged engine in any of their vehicles, perhaps a look at their past is in order.
http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/press/000318.html
If the 9-4X is the one vehicle in question, then no doubt they would be targeting the NA market. IMO, a larger displacement engine would be more appealing to the masses than a smaller turbocharged one.
One other idea:
If some idiotic laws prohibiting turbocharged vehicles are passed (for example, those that were passed to keep young drivers from mangling their hoonmobiles), then I could see it making sense. It would provide an avenue to keep selling vehicles to that sector of the market.
Now you’ve got me really curious, there are a bunch of non-turbocharged Saabs that I could totally live with (while still retaining the Saab spirit).
First there are a couple realistic scenarios I can think of:
I could understand Saab offering a V8 for the next-gen 9-5, remember that Saab originally wanted the “halo” 99 model to be a V8 until they decided to ditch the Triumph mill for the turbo B-engine. Also didn’t they wotk on a prototype V8 based off of the H-engine in the 80’s as a halo powerplant for the 9000? If Saab were to put a NA V8 into their cars though, I’d like it to be a high-revving direct injection engine in the vein of Audi’s RS V8.
I could also see Saab offering a decently powerful NA 4-cyl engine as the base powerplant for the 9-1 or next-gen 9-3. It would be a great fuel-sipper for the base-spec models, and it could be combined with a hybrid drivetrain for some fantastic gas fuel economy. I still think that direct injection would be a must here for the sake of fuel economy and better hp/liter numbers.
Now I could also picture some more far-out Saabs that aren’t turbocharged.
I could see a Saab version of the E-flex architecture, especially as a foil to Lexus’s upcoming version of the Prius the way the Volt is supposed to counter the Prius. In that situation, the less fuel-hungry the gas engine, the better.
Also, remember that the old SVC engine wasn’t turbocharged…
Sam: Yes, that’s a great question. Goes hand in hand with my Cornwall and Eden question.
If you can achieve the same goals without a turbo, then why not?
The Saab way isn’t to be conservative, but innovative. If you don’t need a turbo, don’t use a turbo (and if you need a turbo, use a turbo).
A Saab without a turbo?! Thats like having popcorn without the warm butter - not permitted!
Seriously though, I think it would have to be some form of direct injection engine as they seem to be extremely efficient and fast. Case in point MB has a 3.5L V6 DI engine in the CLS that gets average 31mpg (thats real gallons not that US ones), has 288bhp/269ftlb with 7 speed auto that’ll to 0-62mph in 6.7 seconds.
Failing that, I here Saab could get a decent deal on a reheated turbofan jet engine from Saab Defense.
1. ^ (#25) — that begs the question, why does saab need a turbo? my gut reaction is that saab can’t play the “horsepower game” without the turbo. the days of trying to be competitive, in the luxury segment, with a 150hp engine are the days of yore. that would seem nonplussing. (ok, the last sentence was gratutious. sorry.);
2. now that saab’s product line is all turbo, i don’t think it should go back to offering non-turbos–for any combustion engine; and
3. ‘luck, swade. (it doesn’t read to me that you’re referring to the viggen–or else the two paragraphs (the first and the one about the viggen) probably wouldn’t be separated by unrelated paragraphs). it sounds personal–in a bad way. i hope i’m wrong.
I agree with Tiago. Saabs should be turbocharged unless some better technology is available.
I wouldn’t want to see a low-tech, loss leader entry-level engine (leave those to Opel) or a large NA engine that could be replaced by a smaller more efficient turbocharged engine (even if it’s shared with Cadillac).
You would think that GM understands that Saab’s brand value is built upon intelligently designed cars, but I am always afraid that they will one day decide to make a Buick/Saab just because they can.
The only way I could see a NA engine in a Saab would be for towing efficiency….. But why buy a Saab to tow something? That’s like buying a Porsche for the same reason….. I just don’t see it, though I have seen the Cayennes towing things… just odd, plain odd
I definitely would not want to see a NA 9-5 when a V8 T or juicy V6 T/TT could make just as much power, have lower displacement and maybe even save some gas….
DI is a must at this point on all engines, rather it’s a baseline engine or a halo… I have a feeling that VVT is also going that route too.
I’ve owned 3 Saabs that weren’t turbocharged.
2 99 EMS’ and 900S Talladega. They were defintely still Saabs. I think in some markets it might be appropiate to have an NA model if it means selling more cars and introducing people to the brand. I love Saab turbos, but it doesn’t make me a turbo snob!
BTW, I have always hoped that Saab would try a supercharged engine sometime. A small supercharged engine in the 9-1 would be great.
I call into question the idea that four cylinder engines always get better gas mileage than sixes. My wife’s uncle was getting 40 mpg hwy out of an early 90’s Buick 3.8 V6. My 1988 C900T never got into the 30’s for mileage and got as low as 18 mpg at times.
Swade, I say fix the viggen NO MATTER WHAT. A wrecked viggen gives me a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach, especially when it’s a lightning blue one. Blue viggens are priceless.
SAAB should make their cars turbocharged because turbos are awesome. I like the faint whistle sound as it spools up. I can’t see the turbo in my SAAB, but I know it looks awesome. I think it is neat that there is equipment in my vehicle operating at 90,000+ RPM. Of all the engines SAAB offered in the NG900, B204L produces the most power and also has the best fuel economy rating. If that is still characteristic of turbocharged engines, then all SAAB engines should be turbocharged.
By the way, Land Rover seem to think that supercharging is inherently better than turbocharging. You have to navigate to get to their little comparison. (click on “Range Rover Supercharged”) They really don’t offer any details or make any quantitative comparisons between the performance of differently equipped engines, but if it is true, then maybe SAAB should give it a try too (you know, if they are interested in providing economy and performance.)
(also note the new twin turbo diesel V8 engine mentioned at their UK website… “…54 per cent more powerful than the 6-cylinder diesel it replaces, yet has the same fuel economy.”)