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Since there’s been a fair old discussion about BSR tuning the Turbo X, I thought it might be wise to provide some words of caution (as much for myself as for anyone else).
When I first started looking into Saab tuning, I turned to a few people I knew who had done it before. I knew that fellow Aussie Saabnut, Steve B, had a monster of a Saab 900 and that he had a website, which is where I first read these words, which have stayed with me ever since:
As with any modification to a car it must be running to at least factory specs even before you think about doing any sort of performance upgrade to it.
It is crazy to modify a sick or incorrectly running engine, not in the least you will be unhappy with the results, but you could do more damage than good!
Quite basic and fundamental, but so easily overlooked. Definitely something to think about.
——
Here’s some more detailed words of wisdom on the issue, from none other than our resident GM Tech guru, Tedjs.
For those who don’t know, Ted’s a GM Master Tech and teaches youngsters how to be one at a community college in Ohio. In short, he knows his stuff, and it makes sense to think about what he’s got to say here.
Ted posted this in comments to the BSR Turbo X article and I thought it was worth reproducing here:
I am sure that the BSR ECU upgrade does what it supposed to do, and Alex presents a compelling case for the company while neatly discrediting GM and its inability to put that magic 300hp number on the Turbo X, but you have to look at a few things here:
The MU9 manual transaxle that the Turbo X version of the 9-3 uses has most likely been pushed to its torque limit (capacity) in its current form. Reason I say this is we have a few warranty units where I work and you can tell they were damaged by what some might consider ‘spirited driving’ or speed shifting. That’s cool, but there are no parts available for them here in the United States. You break one and the entire unit must be replaced.
The horsepower crowd is missing the point of the engine in the Turbo X as it produces 295 lb-ft. (400 Nm) of torque at a mere 1900RPM and has a nice flat curve before power drops off. That’s simply awesome which leads to (next):
All wheel drive cars are great at getting traction – that’s why we love them. However, drop the clutch in drag race mode and the wheels will not slip – great – however the weakest link in the driveline does and that is the clutch. Horsepower won’t hurt the clutch, but eventually all that torque will. I am sure that these components can take some abuse, however you are asking for smoke when you start raising engine output without strengthening what is probably the weakest part of any manual transmission equipped vehicle. Just ask all those EVO owners who get denied warranty from Mitsubishi on those clutches.
So – if it were my car I would be worried about the drivetrain handling a power boost.
In the end, you just have to wonder how many Turbo X owners are going to beat the living crap out of their cars and wish that they had a few more lb-ft. of torque or some more top end horsepower? It is a limited edition car after all and from everything I have heard and read it is a great one.
Again, all that stuff is fun to play around with if you are into it but I sometimes have to wonder if people who plug-n-play with their cars really know what they are getting into.
Again, something to think about.
——
Something else that I’ve been thinking about since this discussion started…..
A few people mentioned the way that you can use the BSR unit to tune your car then re-set it back to factory settings. This and the ease of use is one of the very appealing things about the BSR system. People were mentioning that you can re-flash to factory settings in order to hide from your dealer that you’ve tuned your car.
Your car stores a heap of data about it’s performance, though. I remember when I first got my Viggen that Matt the fudgepacker hooked it up to Tech II and was able to tell me heaps about the performance of the car.
My thought is this – wouldn’t the BSR tune and the performance characteristics it delivers be picked up by Tech II, even after the car’s been re-set to factory settings?
Those with the requisite knowledge please feel free to enlighten us……
19 responses so far ↓
1 sab
// Apr 25, 2008 at 3:52 pm
cheers for the props there Swadey… and I still believe in those words too! I still have the 900 Aero, the silver sled, of course, but most of my tuning recently has been spent on my 2002 9-3 Aero, which is currently a Nordic Stage 4 with all the associated best HW bits. I made sure she was in the best possible condition in stock form first before adding any performance hardware or software. Needless to say, it is running great… except for an occasional check engine light. Think i need to replace my MAF sensor. doh!
Now get that Viggen fixed quick smart buddy!
sab
2 Sweeper
// Apr 25, 2008 at 4:27 pm
First gear, you cannot use more torque than the standard car because of driveline and tire limitations, as already pointed out. If you have a few more horsepower, you can stay in first a little longer than with less (power[kW] = torque[Nm]*[rpm]*pi/30000). Second gear (unless you are too heavy) and upward you can utilise both the extra torque and power.
Think of the torque limit as how much torque=acceleration is available and the power limit as for how long time you have that torque (up to what revs).
3 Arild
// Apr 25, 2008 at 5:03 pm
My first rule of engine tuning:
If you can’t afford replacing a blown engine, then don’t tune your car!
4 WooDz
// Apr 25, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Sweeper that was a bit over my head, so I guess you know your stuff.
but I think what your getting at, is the torque limiter in 1st and 2nd gear on Saabs so theoretically you can’t put an excessive amount on power through the drive train? (Hope I’m not way off track here)
But I remember reading that the TurboX doesn’t have a limiter. So as Ted explained if anything is going to give, it could likely be the clutch which is the weakest part in the chain.
As we’re talking about a XWD system and the driving style of someone who would tune their car It could well be the rear clutch along with the eLSD that takes the hit..
All this is naturally ’scare mongering’.
But I wonder if it is possible for BSR to program an optional torque limiter for a reasonable amount of peace of mind?
5 swade
// Apr 25, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Just quietly…..from Sweeper’s email address I’d say he definitely knows what he’s talking about.
6 WooDz
// Apr 25, 2008 at 6:01 pm
The power of inside info eh, swade ; D
Actually totally over my head is closer to the point.
btw. couldn’t resist adapting that twin Viggen pic for you m8.
7 Paul Humpage
// Apr 25, 2008 at 6:09 pm
I was always keen on doing the ecu performance upgrade on the 9-5 wagon and was ready to order from BSR in the month that my mate rolled his souped up 9000 Aero quite a few times out in the country and Swade lost his Viggen on the racetrack. I decided then and there that the wagon has all the power i want as it is. I just bunged on some Aero alloys and foglights so it looks faster:)
8 PT
// Apr 25, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Interesting thread.
I’m not really a participant in the tuning olympics but here’s a few points that I stick to with cars in general in this area:
1) Stock sports or similar cars are usually way beyond the cabability of most drivers and certainly the public roads in most countries. A car like a WRX or TurboX or S4 or M3 is more than adequate for most of us. straight out of the packed. If you are taking it onto a track, thats a differenet story.
2)Tune the ecu/drivetrain when the warranty is over.
3) You can do a lot with a car before touching the engine. In fact, the engine is probably the last thing to touch; after suspension, wheels, tyres, steering, brakes, exhaust……
4) Aftermarket chips handled well are a great way to get an average car driving really well for not a lot of money . However, see point 3 first.
9 Joe Lobo
// Apr 25, 2008 at 9:16 pm
I am hoping to be the owner of a Turbo X soon. Will I be jumping on to the BSR U/G knowing that it’s available ??? It really will depend on how well the car goes out of the box or maybe I have a “mid life crisis moment of madness” factor overriding common sense that tells me “I must have it”. I’ve had my 9-3 Aero with the BSR U/G for over 2 years. The primary reason was to get the extra kw/HP and more importantly torque when you need to car to act quickly and deliver power. Most of you have seen my 9-3 and the way I keep/treat it. If you are going to belt the car no matter what and push its limits you’ll wreck it with our without the BSR or whatever ECU upgrade. One must be careful and conscious about how you drive your vehicles. I know for a fact that Jeff B has tuned most of his cars in particular the Vig and the 9000 Aero. The Hirsch is already tuned as it came out of the box. Has he blown up pistons, clutches, gearboxes, difs etc etc. I doubt it as he handles his cars even with more care than me. I hope Jeff can add more if he’s there reading.
10 Magnus
// Apr 25, 2008 at 9:47 pm
I have a 9-3 Linear and I’m keen on BSR Stage 1. Do anyone have experience with any changes to fuel consumption or other problems?
11 Rentokil
// Apr 25, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Magnus: I have the Maptun stage1 upgrade on my 93ss 2.0 Aero, which i’d imagine would be nearly identical to the BSR one for my car. I’ve gone from 210 to 250hp (365Nm).
On a day to day basis I’ve noticed a slight improvement in the fuel economy, maybe about 2mpg better – I’m putting that down to being able to use a higher gear because of the extra torque – eg. one or two of the hills on my way to work I can now go up in 5th instead of 4th. I can potter along at 30mph in 6th a lot more now too if the road’s pretty flat.
BUT. Spirited driving uses a noticeable amount more fuel than before – it’s quite addictive “booting it” with those extra horses at your disposal, so I tend to do it more often than I did before.
I suppose at the end of the day it depends on your driving style. On balance for me, with a mixture of sensible and spirited driving my fuel economy has probably stayed about the same. (24.5 mpg (imperial gallons))
I’d imagine the Linear stage one fuel economy would stay similar to before for you too. Just depends on how heavy your foot becomes after the upgrade.
12 Rentokil
// Apr 25, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Oh yeah, and no problems whatsoever.
New brakes on the shopping list next though.
Then a new exhaust
Then a turbo
More ECU programming
Beyond that I’ll be needing a new clutch.
So, yeah, the only problem I’ve had/got is knowing when to stop upgrading, it’s potentially quite an expensive hobby.
My wife just rolls her eyes, if she complains I’ll just point at her shoe collection and raise an eyebrow.
13 MarkoA
// Apr 25, 2008 at 11:42 pm
I want to bring again TTiD on the discussion. I think it would be amazing to have 1.9 liter diesel engine with 200hp / 420Nm and retain warranty?! I mean that is a lot of torq from les than two liter engine. I wonder what happens to acceleration figures? +20 hp and +20Nm is not really very much compared to that of what petrol units gain, but it´s still very impressive.
Especially if you have automatic (like I do! ) you´ll get 50Nm more 370Nm->420Nm. This detail also tells me that 370Nm limit is not because of transmission has limit so low, but it´s quite likely to achieve smoother acceleration. Does anyone know if the automatic is same for 2.8T and TTiD?
It´s time for me to start thinking good excuses for missus, why should I save +1000€ for software upgrade.
14 NJ_Nick
// Apr 26, 2008 at 1:15 am
From what I have read, the Tech II may detect when factory settings were last installed. Thus, re-installing factory settings (e.g. “tuning” and “de-tuning” the car) would be something that could be detected. It is apparently rarely checked from what I hear, but with tuning kits becoming more and more common who knows….
Also, a Swedish news paper (I think DN) wrote that the SAAB engineer’s did not get to put an “S” button on the automatic version of Turbo-X. I love that “S” button…but it would make me think twice about tuning my car.
15 Tedjs
// Apr 26, 2008 at 1:37 am
Swade –
As far as Tech II finding information if a software reflash (reprogram) has been done, there are things some things an experienced technician might see to indicate this.
The most common thing that happens is that during the reprogramming event the ECU ‘stops talking’ to other modules on the network and those modules will either store DTC information indicating this or reset as a result of the reprogram. Typically there are no lamps on the dash that illuminate as the ‘fault’ is no longer present once the key is cycled so the module just keeps it for history information.
Disconnecting the battery generally does not clear these codes so anymore, so you need a Tech II to clean up the mess after programming is done. The Tech II includes a function now so that after you reprogram/replace a module during service it will go out and clear codes from everything and indicate what other functions need to be re-learned. For example, when reprogramming an ECU on a 9-3 one of the most common things that happens is the window pinch protection (express up) gets erased from the driver and passenger door modules.
In my experience though, spirited driving (ahem) is easily identified by broken parts. Burned up clutch discs at low mileage, overheated flywheels and over-revved engines with bent valves are all neat things to look at.
16 MarkoA
// Apr 26, 2008 at 4:13 am
ECU will store maximum calculated torque value and it cannot be deleted, but it will be overwritten in some time perioid. This is one way for experienced saab mechanic to see if the car was tuned (or if it has a problem). But it´s only IF someone is really intrested.
This is what one Saab mech told me when I asked if BSR software is possible to detect afterwards.
17 Alex
// Apr 26, 2008 at 8:06 am
Basically, your warranty is safe with software changes unless you do something really blatant like put putting a rod through the crankcase or something like that, and even then, if you reset it back to stock the dealership would really have to dig to find something they can deny your warranty work with.
It’s all a moot point though, because you’ll never blow the engine with software from a reputable place like BSR, Maptun, SQR, Nordic, Rica, etc because their staged upgrades are very well engineered to work with the engine setup that they require. Pretty much the only time you’ll blow an engine is when YOU are doing something wrong.
The same goes for the rest of the car, it likely won’t break unless you do something stupid. The Turbo-X is designed as a performance car, and the driveline has been engineered to handle the rigors of proper spirited driving.
A session on the track in a stock Turbo X a-la Wulf’s experience is far harder on the drivetrain (with it’s quick loading and de-loading of the various drivetrain components) than high speed cruising, passing, racing from a roll, etc in a stage 3 Turbo X would be. Of course you’ll blow a transmission with a staged car if you keep doing clutch-drops and no-lift shifts, but you’ll blow a transmission if you did those things in a stock car anyways.
So modifications can be a great addition to your car, you just have to be smart about them and you shouldn’t run into any problems.
18 Abs
// Apr 26, 2008 at 12:24 pm
MY07 93 SS 60A.E.:
Does adding a K&N Air Intake and Filter or BSR Intake void the factory warranty?
I am also thinking of getting the Sport Exhaust Twin Pipe installed at my local Saab dealership. How much HP would it increase if any? I read somewhere like 6 ponies or so. I’m adding it more for the faster look rather than performance alla Paul Humpage.
19 Swade
// Apr 26, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Strictly speaking, abs, anything you replace with with non-factory stuff, or isn’t done by the proper technicians, is possibly grounds for Saab kicking up a fuss with regards to warranty. There would need to be cause shown, though (i.e. the mod you’ve done has caused the problem you’re experiencing and trying to claim on warranty).
It may sound excessive, but they’re not in business to give away stuff for free, so any reasonable reason might be enough for them.