BSR tune the Saab Turbo X
BSR have trumped Hirsch by being first to produce and officially market their tuning software for the Saab Turbo X or Saab XWD Aero.
The tuning upgrade produces 300hp and a massive 480Nm of torque. That’s up from the standard 280hp and 400Nm.
The tuning is via BSR’s ppc unit, which connects up to your car through the port just under your steering wheel. When you want to revert back to your factory settings, just plug it in again and wait.
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Hirsch’s tune for the Turbo X will also produce 300hp but will top out at 430Nm in the torque department. It’s believed that tune will consist of a larger intercooler only. Uprated parts are needed to take things further but they won’t be ready for some time.
Hopefully we’ll hear from Hirsch soon.
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Now were talking..
should have been this from factory..
a.
Not Turbo X news, but Saab tuning anyways. Hirsch will offer upgrade to TTiD engine in third quarter of this year. This info is straight from Hirsch´s marketing director.
No specs available yet.
I cannot wait to hear the results. At least TiDS 150hp version turns to a completely different beast with Hirsch software.
I just don’t know if I would plug that black box into my $40,000 new car.
That stuff has its place I suppose, but I have seen plenty of issues with aftermarket tuner parts after they are installed. Check engine lamps, or other driveability issues etc. Richo’s Viggen comes to mind here.
If Saab had a software calibration that would boost power then I would feel better about it, but that is just me. That transaxle and drivetrain are able to handle a certain amount of torque so I still think that is why it was set at the value it was.
Is there any way to know if Turbo X’s transmission can handle 480 nm???
Marko,
According to the matrix at the Hirsch site, the TTiD tune will put out 200hp and 420Nm, which is +20 for both figures over the standard tune.
To all the people who are afraid of damaging their cars with tunes, damage with tunes usually happens because the user didn’t bring their car up to the specs that the tune was based around, or didn’t properly maintain their car.
Case in point: Richo’s viggen, the fact that it cracked pistons wasn’t the tune’s fault, it was because of the crappy cast pistons that GM spec’d for the car. Cracked pistons are a common, common occurrence in Trionic-7 Saabs and before you push any sort of serious boost through an internally stock T7 engine you want to be absolutely sure that the car was properly maintained for ALL of it’s life and never overheated, etc.
That said, I’d love to see what the 2.8 can do with a real turbo. I’m sure the drivetrain is capable of handling the same 350-450hp that the haldex systems in other cars seem to be capable of handling. I would be much less worried about the drivetrain than I would about the turbo and IC being able to handle that kind of power.
The 2.8t was designed as a ~5 psi, 250hp engine and to my knowledge there are no mechanical differences between the ~5psi, 250/255 hp version and the ~8psi, 280hp version. That means that the dinky turbo designed around making 250 hp is close to the edge of it’s efficiency range making 280hp and that BSR probably had to work to make it to 300 and Hirsch had to go to an upgraded IC to make the tune reliable enough to be covered under warranty (a great way to compensate for the heat thrown out by a turbo at the edge of it’s efficiency range is to use the biggest IC you can to get intake temperatures down to a reasonable level.
Does this kind of tuning void Saab’s warranty? Just curious…if they would refuse to cover things. I agree with Tedjs, I can’t really imagine screwing with a brand new car.
Beren, it does indeed void your warranty, depending on the fault you might have and whether the tuning could cause that fault (now there’s a nice argument to have). Most people leave it a few years before chipping a car this way for that reason, though some will take the risk to get a little more from their new car straight away. That’s also the reason why I believe Saab USA need to establish a relationship with Hirsch. They’re the only tuner whose work is covered by Saab’s warranty.
That’s why the BSR PPC lets you reflash back to the stock maps. Usually that’s good enough to sneak through the dealerships’ nets and retain your warranty.
Generally, the local dealerships seem fine with suspension and minor cosmetic upgrades, so you just have to be smart when you chip your car.
And Swade I don’t think warranty-safe mods are the key to sales success in the US. Over here, the warranty-safe ECU work from companies like Dinan, Heico, etc carry a strong reputation of being overpriced and underperforming relative to the less warranty-safe competition. This is especially true among the type of buyer who would be interested in ECU reflashes in the first place.
Or to put it this way, the people I know who had the maps tweaked on their brand-new cars couldn’t give two rats’ asses about keeping their warranty, and the ones who did just made friends at their dealership.
Rather than focusing on bringing Hirsch to the US, we should focus on getting GM to build Saabs to the levels of Hirsch cars from the first place. If Saab will warranty 300hp/430NM, then why not just bite the bullet and give the Aeros/Turbo X’s that kind of power from the factory? The same goes with the leather interiors, it really boggles the mind.
Then, Hirsch could be free to do the REALLY cool stuff (like what Dinan/Brabus do) and start working on things like warranty-safe turbo, suspension, and engine upgrades for Saabs.
Alex, I don’t think bringing Hirsch to the US is a key to sales success there. I just think it’d be a bloody good idea to offer customers more. On your second point, I agree - it’d be good if high-end Saabs were up at that point straight out of the gate.
this strikes me as a fairly mild upgrade. REVO’s software for the VW/Audi 2.0T FSI motor bumps output from 200 horsepower to 255 horsepower, and torque from 207 ft-lbs to 290(!) ft-lbs. Driveability doesn’t suffer - it’s very well-developed software with many, many users. There is a bit more turbo lag but that’s because the peak is increased from 9 to 18 psi. I know many people running real software (APR, GIAC, REVO, and Unitronic like myself) with thousands or even 100,000+ miles on a stock engine, trans, turbo with nary a problem or CEL.
I will have a review up on my site shortly of an A4 2.0T Quattro Tiptronic with REVO - it’s an impressive piece of equipment. There are lots of aftermarket things i wouldn’t do to a new car, but a chip isn’t one of them. In fact, I doubt I would buy a Turbo X (or any Saab or turbo car in general) and NOT get it chip-tuned - it’s power that’s just waiting to be unleashed. And on a 2.8L turbo motor, 20 horsepower and 80nM is not that impressive of a gain.
Big gains are easier to get on a 200hp engine, James, and 80Nm is no small improvement. It’s a little curious that no tuner is taking the 2.8l Saab V6 well into the 300’s though. There must be a reason for that.
I think Alex pointed out a really important point, above. No-one should think about chipping an engine without checking out first that the components can take it. And the engine’s got to be running well in stock form first, otherwise it’s just asking for trouble.
I think the reason Swade is the small turbo. Ever look under the hood of a 2.8t car? The turbo is about the same size as the one on the Viggen and 9-5 Aero’s 2.3 HOT engine. It’s just a Mitsubishi TD04-15K which is a kissing cousin of the TD04-15T in the Viggen/Aero (or about the same size as the K04 derivative turbo in the 4-cylinder Solstice GXP)
That was a fine turbo when it was expected to make 250hp with ~5 psi in the pre-facelift Aero’s, and it was perfectly sized for that job. At the ~8psi that it needs to produce to crank out 280hp in the xwd cars, the poor little 15k is already at the edge of it’s efficiency range.
So expecting the Turbo X to break into the mid-300’s with software alone would be like expecting a 175hp 2.3t 9-5 linear to break 250hp on the stock turbo. It’s also why the 2.8t is criticized so much for falling flat on it’s face at higher rpm’s, the turbo is just too small to adequately serve the engine above ~4000 rpm and it just runs out of juice.
I think the reason why we got stuck with the 280hp Turbo X was that GM cheaped out and decided that they didn’t feel like spending the money to engineer a properly-sized turbo for a 300-320hp setup for the Turbo X. That would also explain why the Turbo X is the first “halo” Saab in a while that doesn’t push 1 bar of boost the way the SPG, 9000 Aero, Viggen, and 9-5 Aero did.
I have every reason to believe that when Saab dropped the “280-320hp” rumor about the Turbo X, they had every intention to give it a bigger turbo and aim for ~1 bar of boost and the same sorts of hp/liter numbers that the 260hp 9-5 currently makes. My guess is that GM axed that idea due to the low volume of the car and the cost of engineering the 9-3 chassis to take XWD.
It’s a shame, because that 300-320hp Turbo X would have been a real contender for the $43k USD they want for it, instead of being the controversial car that the current one has become.
Now let’s look at the other 300hp turbo cars out there. The STI, EVO, S60R, and 335i all have turbo setups designed around making 300hp in the middle of their efficiency range (or the ~330 crank hp that the 335i has been proven to ACTUALLY make). This is why those cars can get awfully close to 400hp on their stock turbos while the Turbo X with it’s LPT-sized snail can barely break 300.
Alex, cudos for some great posts on the topic! We often disagree, but I’ve been reading every word you’ve posted here with interest. Keep it up, mate.
So, do you think it would be reasonably safe to chip a Turbo X to the 300 hp / 480 Nm torque offered by the new BSR?
Anything that BSR offers should be completely safe for the car as long as you also carry out any physical modifications that they require (bolt-on’s, etc). BSR is among the best of the best when it comes to engineering ECU upgrades.
Personally, my guess is that the Turbo X is capable of making maybe ~320hp with it’s stock mechanicals, but that you’d probably need things like an upgraded exhaust, open intake, and an upgrade to a front-mount intercooler, basically things that help you work around the turbo’s limitations.
The Saab that has me really excited is the rumored 350+ hp top model of the next-generation 9-5. Rather than being a stop-gap solution like the 280hp V6, that engine should be designed around that kind of power (and as such capable of making well into the 400’s on software alone
). That’s the new Saab I’m hoping to buy, either new or CPO, whichever I can do when it hits the market.
Interestingly, the Turbo X upgrade offered by BSR does not require any physical mods. Just the chip and the badges.
And agreed on the new 9-5 Aero. Range-topping at 370-380 hp is nice, but I do think they should walk the extra mile and put it north of 400. A year or so into the new 9-5 both BMW and Audi will be due for new versions of the 5 series and the A6, respectively, and I personally anticipate their range-toppers to output 400+, very likely turbo and/or supercharged V6 and V8s.
So it may be a wise move for Saab to anticipate what the competition will be up to and keep the momentum. Launch the 9-5 Aero with 400+ hp.
I am sure that the BSR ECU upgrade does what it supposed to do, and Alex presents a compelling case for the company while neatly discrediting GM and its inability to put that magic 300hp number on the Turbo X, but you have to look at a few things here:
The MU9 manual transaxle that the Turbo X version of the 9-3 uses has most likely been pushed to its torque limit (capacity) in its current form. Reason I say this is we have a few warranty units where I work and you can tell they were damaged by what some might consider ‘spirited driving’ or speed shifting. That’s cool, but there are no parts available for them here in the United States. You break one and the entire unit must be replaced.
The horsepower crowd is missing the point of the engine in the Turbo X as it produces 295 lb-ft. (400 Nm) of torque at a mere 1900RPM and has a nice flat curve before power drops off. That’s simply awesome which leads to (next):
All wheel drive cars are great at getting traction – that’s why we love them. However, drop the clutch in drag race mode and the wheels will not slip – great – however the weakest link in the driveline does and that is the clutch. Horsepower won’t hurt the clutch, but eventually all that torque will. I am sure that these components can take some abuse, however you are asking for smoke when you start raising engine output without strengthening what is probably the weakest part of any manual transmission equipped vehicle. Just ask all those EVO owners who get denied warranty from Mitsubishi on those clutches.
So – if it were my car I would be worried about the drivetrain handling a power boost.
In the end, you just have to wonder how many Turbo X owners are going to beat the living crap out of their cars and wish that they had a few more lb-ft. of torque or some more top end horsepower? It is a limited edition car after all and from everything I have heard and read it is a great one.
Again, all that stuff is fun to play around with if you are into it but I sometimes have to wonder if people who plug-n-play with their cars really know what they are getting into.
Didn’t Saab say at some point that the transmission on the 9-3 could only reliably take 400nm, and that’s why the Turbo-X didn’t have 300 horses to begin with, raising it past 280 would have pushed the torque too high? I’m pretty sure that was their reasoning.
thing is, swade, a 55 horsepower gain on a 200 horsepower engine isn’t that impressive - sure. But a 55 horsepower a 90 lb-ft gain on a 2.0L engine with a Borg-Warner K03 IS impressive. The K03 is perhaps even more pathetic than the TD04-15; even at stock output it runs out of breath past 5,800rpms or so. And on a 2.0L engine, that’s a lot of extra output.
One thing that many people who tune the 2.0T FSI (and 1.8 20v Turbo) have found is that is is completely necessary to replace the weak stock diverter valve. My friend with REVO on the A4 had his file for about a week before the factory diverter valve ripped - since it uses a rubber diaphragm. But with a steel Forge 007 DV, it holds peak boost quite well and there are no surges or strange peaks.
Of course the other recommended upgrade for a 1.8T or 2.0T FSI when you do anything beyond a chip is a new clutch and flywheel; on the transverse-engine 1.8T cars (Jetta, Golf) VW for some reason used the same clutch as in the 2.0L non-turbo 8v engine, which made a thundering 115 crank horsepower when new. So Tedjs, I see your point - after hearing about the maximum torque capacity of the 9-3’s transmission i would be slightly wary of doing anything beyond a chip, as well.
Speaking of Turbo X tuning, a good friend of mine and fellow Saab nut (most often referred to as “Mr. X” in Swedish Saab circles and renowned for pioneering high powered tuning projects of new Saab models) took delivery of his Turbo X sedan. The car has 20 miles on the clock, and it’s now time to up the ante. First stop is MapTun Performance in Örebro, where a stage 1 tuning kit will be installed. Mild hardware mods and a custom software will give a healthy boost in power to 300+ hp/400+ Nm. This is, however, only the beginning. In “Mr. X”:s workshop rests a significantly more menacing engine package, ready to deliver a heart stopping 450+ hp thanks to reworked internals (pistons, rods and crankshaft), a large Garrett GT-series turbo on a custom tubular header and an upgraded fuelling system. Even though this is not on par with his previous 520 hp MY 2004 9-5 Aero (http://www.maptun.com/cars.php?id=212), at least it has 4WD and it will probably keep him happy for a while…
Stay tuned for more on this insane Turbo X!
For the more mild mannered, MapTun Performance have ordered their very own Turbo X for development purposes, so rest assured that more reasonable tuning kits in the 300-400 hp range will be available in the near future.
Regards,
Karl
Karl, please tell Mr X that I’d be very happy to expose his work to the wider Saab community if he so desires
Swade,
I’ll be sure to let him know! He’s a bit secretive, but at heart he loves showing off…
I’ll keep you posted on the progress. Hope to get some sneak preview shots of his engine package!
Regards,
Karl
Nice one, Mr X and his Turbo X. Looking forward to more on that one!
@Karl, that’s great to hear that Maptun is working on staged upgrades for the car. I wonder at which stage they’ll require you to upgrade the turbo or internals though, it should be interesting to really get a chance to see the limitations of the 2.8t engine.
@Karl, any news from Mr X ??
Hi,
Last I heard from Mr. X, a couple of weeks ago, the new engine was ready to be implanted…
He’s currently waiting for MapTun to have spare time to start the remap. Most likely after summer, they’re extremely busy at the moment (partly with my 9-3 2,0t BioPower that’s undergoing a mild transformation as well…)
Regards,
Karl
Hi Karl,
Ok, let me know when you have news on the X from Mr. X and goodluck with the transformation on your 9-3 !!!
Regards,
Fil.
Hi,
You can catch a glimpse of my 9-3 BioPower project here. Car is only one month old, so I’ve only just gotten to the exterior yet…
Regards,
Karl
Well, meant to post a link as well…
http://www.garaget.org/?car=98727
Regards,
Karl
Nice car !!!