Smoking Viggen problems…..
I posted earlier today on Richo’s question with regard to picking up a Saab vs a Subaru. Richo’s helped me out here on the website on multiple occasions, most notably with the Aero-X debut in Sydney and the BioPower/Diesel launch in Brisbane.
Many of you would know that Richo has a 3-door Viggen in Lightning Blue, just like mine, so I feel a certain affinity with the man. His fun is my fun and his pain is my pain.
And that’s what we’ve got here. One photo chock full of pain.
That’s a whole bunch of smoke coming from the car at cold start. There’s been some initial probing by the local Saab tech in Sydney, who have done and noted the following:
- First step was to change engine oil to 20w50 mineral oil.
Fault was not rectified by this and smoke was visible from the exhaust.
Next step was to remove the spark plugs and inspect for evidence of oil burning.
No.3 was contaminated.
Carried out compression test, No.3 read higher than the others
Visible inspection of No.3 piston crown revealed oil wetness.
Cause of fault is either worn/damaged oil scraper ring on No.3 piston or valve stem seal leakage.
However the circumstances when smoke is visible when driving (under power), makes me believe that a piston / ring problem is the cause.
Engine disassembly will be necessary to confirm this.
It should be noted that the photo above was taken in the middle of last week and funnily enough, the car’s stopped smoking in the last few days and appears to be holding the required quantity of oil. But problems like this, generally speaking, aren’t likely to just disappear. So this places Richo in the Saab vs Subaru conundrum I posted about earlier. Like me and 99% of you, Richo doesn’t have the mechanical nouse to do the work himself. Even just taking things apart to do a proper diagnosis would be a costly affair and that’s before anything gets fixed.
Accompanying all this drama is a fair chunk of anger at the fact that this has happened in the first place.
Richo’s been a loyal Saab owner for 16 years, loves the brand and the unique nature of the car he drives. He’s been a great ambassador for the brand, but he’s very frustrated that the car he loves so much has let him down like this at such a young age.
The car’s only done around 80,000 kms and is only 8 years old. The car’s been enjoyed but never, ever thrashed. Richo’s pretty meticulous in looking after it and has poured around $12,000 into since he purchased it with around 30,000 kms on the clock. It’s had a perfect service history all that time and this latest shock comes on top of getting a new turbo and balance chain fitted around 2.5 years ago (both of which were too young for failure as well).
This sort of thing just isn’t supposed to happen. So….what would you do in Richo’s situation?
Well, he’s written to Saab Australia to get their point of view on one of their flagship models failing at such a young age after a pampered life. He’s still waiting to hear what they’ve got to say but hopefully will receive an answer soon.
In the meantime, he’s got to decide on how to best care for the Viggen, and whether he can afford to keep doing so, or remove some stress from his life and for the first time in many, many years, drive something other than a Saab.
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I’m no tech wizard, but is’nt smoke coming from an turbo engine a sign of a worn out/busted turbo. The smoke has to be white’is I think. Something I read about what to check fore when buying a used turbo engined car. Just my 0.02cent
I’m no tech wizard, but is’nt smoke coming from an turbo engine a sign of a possible worn out/busted turbo. The smoke has to be white’is I think. Something I read about what to check fore when buying a used turbo engined car. Just my 0.02cent
That black/dark smoke looks like the result of an overly rich fuel mixture to me, but that is just my observation from the picture.
I have never heard of an intermittent oil consumption problem, however sticking rings causing a problem like might be feasible. Here in the freezing USA (it is -15 Fahrenheit with wind chills today) GM sells a magic elixir called Top Engine Cleaner which has been re-christened as Upper Engine Cleaner in recent years. This can be used to clean the combustion chamber and has in some cases un-stuck some sticking rings.
Sticking rings and oil consumption are usually caused by a few things. If you were driving a NorthStar equipped Cadillac Deville here in the USA I might tell you that are doing a lot of short trip driving and not enjoying (ahem) the upper end of the RPM range of the engine. Deville drivers rarely take the engine over 2000RPM so loaning your car to your 16 year nephew and letting him drive it like he stole it for a week or so might fix all your problems.
Chevrolet Silverado owners who ‘baby’ there LS1 equipped trucks might experience a similar problem as carbon builds up on the piston skirt which causes it to stick in the bore at cold start and ‘rock’ which causes some noise until the engine warms up. Camaro Z28 and Corvette owners tend to never hear cold engine knock as they drive those cars (same engine) with a bit more spirit. So, bottom line there - maybe putting a higher RPM go fast motor in a truck or Deville was not the best idea.
Saab 9-7 owners might want to take their SUV out and stretch its legs a bit.
The other thing to think about in relation to sticking rings or valves is fuel. Here in the USA there is now a standard for gasoline called Top Tier. http://www.toptiergas.com/ Top Tier gas is formulated to control some of the deposits that can cause sticking intake valves and possibly rings as well.
Don’t get me wrong – problems that are mechanical are simply that. And unfortunately when things like that happen, no amount of additives will fix it. That Viggen may unfortunately require some surgery if the problem comes back.
At any rate Richo is dealing with a situation that many owners do – wanting a manufacturer to stand behind their product long term. And usually if the manufacturer does not – they jump ship because they have to write a check for repairs. I guess that is a reason for some owners to switch brands, but I don’t agree with that logic. Here in the USA Subaru’s have a reputation for being as quirky as Saab’s in some circles. Expensive parts and a small network of dealers sometimes deter customers from buying them.
So, should Richo fix his car or buy a Subaru? I guess that is a personal decision. He might be posting on a Subaru message board in a few years all the problems he has had with his vehicle – or he may not. In my opinion – you have to stick with something that you like to drive.
If the big smoke is blueish at cold start it means that the bearings and sealings of the turbocharger are worned out, so after the engine stopped the oil is leaked inside the turbocharger and on cold start this oil wil produce the big blueish smoke.
Did the tech even check the intake/exhaust for oil? I’d be willing to bet there’s a whole mess of oil in the intercooler (which would indicate a blown seal in the turbocharger).
Tedjs, I was reading about Shell (a top tier gas in the USA) and found that their Shell V-Power has even more detergents, enough only to not only stop carbon deposits from forming, but enough to clean already formed deposits.
Of course this is only true for sure for the USA and Canada.
saabyurk,
I only put V-Power in my 9-3, and my wife is under strict orders to do them same. I shoot fire out of the exhaust with that stuff on hard acceleration.
All kidding aside – it does do a good job controlling deposits. I have seen some independent studies on it so the Top-Tier certification does have some validation.
The only reason I would not suspect a turbo problem on Richo’s Saab is the stated diagnosis said it was isolated to the number three cylinder. Oil in the turbo would be distributed to all cylinders. I could be wrong though.
With a limited edition high output Turbo car like the Viggen I would “expect” lower reliability than for a standard 2.0T. I feel your pain, and agree that you shouldn’t have to experience something like this, but I almost think it’s something one has to take when driving a car like the Viggen, and at 8 years old it’s not a new car anymore.
The smoke is the car’s response to the corny “Old McDonald had a farm” license plate.
E-I-E-I-O-my-gawd.
The poor Vig must be humiliated.
saabyurk and Tedjs - I put V-Power in my Saab once, and only once, because after I did, the car ran ultra-sluggish until I gassed up again, and it got like 3 mpg less than normal the whole time. I always use Exxon premium, it’s never given me any trouble, and if there aren’t any Exxons around, I go with BP premium. When I put the V-Power in, it was like I was using standard.
Jeff - I only used V-Power once, and the car in front of me was a new Porsche Carrera with the same Conti Sport Contact2 tires as my Saab. Made me feel like I was in the right lane. But, my mileage was off a bit like you say. About power though, it’s hard to tell without a dyno though. However, my Arc 2.0T does seem noticeably quicker and smoother-running on Sunoco 92 than anything else, wish it was a top tier gasoline. I’m going to go from Sunoco 92 to a full tank of V-Power and see if I can tell a difference. My car doesn’t much like BP premium though, low mileage and sluggish on cold mornings.
First check boostpipe to trottelbody, if there is oil.
Second use ONLY 0W-30 or 5W-30 oil made by GM and change it every 10 000km cause you have so called troubble engine.
Possible faults are turbocharger, or leak some where in valve or….
@Hans Fredrik: well, I wouldn’t expect lower reliability. Our Viggen now has more than 335′000 km. There were some repairs along the way, but nothing (yet…) concerning the turbo or the motor.
concerning Richo’s Viggen: I can feel his pain, but I agree with Tedjs comment: he should drive something he likes. Live’s too short to drive boring cars
From looking at the pic, I too would seriously consider the issue to be with a seal in the turbocharger too… as others have said check the intake pipes for oil… check the i/c for oil too. I would consider getting a second opinion from a different Saab indie.
good luck in getting it fixed Richo… you know it makes sense to do so!
In old American V8 cars you could just switch to a heavier oil and your problems would go away for a while. The solution is to put a new set of rings on the car. It is expensive, but probably worth it if you want to keep driving that car. It needs to be done even if he trades his car off. If he does trade it, then anyone in Richo’s area should really check out any used blue viggens before inherting that problem.
If it’s the problem of oil migrating past the turbocharger seals this is a common problem with 9-3s of that vintage. I believe this is also occurring with my wife’s ‘01 9-3.
I believe it had something to do with the crankcase ventilation system getting clogged, the crankcase building-up pressure as a result, then pushing engine oil past the seals into the turbo. So when you start the car the turbo burns-off the pooled oil in it.
At one time I understood the resolution to be that you had to replace both your turbo and the pipes to it to get all the oil out (as the oil will have coated the walls of the pipes), in addition to replacing the seals and installing a Saab crankcase ventilation retrofit kit.
However, later it was determined that the crankcase ventilation kit made matters worse and Saab no longer recommended this. I don’t know what the current solution Saab suggests for this problem is.
My wife’s car started exhibiting this problem probably around 70K miles on the odometer. Another ‘01 9-3 I was looking at at a local dealer at the same time I was shopping for my wife’s car (around 2004) had the “blue smoke on startup” problem also and it didn’t have nearly as many miles on it.
IMHO this is a ridiculous problem which occurs with not too many miles on the car which has an expensive solution that I think Saab should have recognized as a design flaw and fixed for free upon customer complaint rather than expect the customer to bear the brunt of the expensive repair.
However, in Richo’s case because there’s oil in the cylinder I’m guessing he’s got blown rings on the #3 piston. But there are more accomplished mechanics who frequent this site than I…
I forth the issue is Turbo charger related.
Common problem on lpt 9-5. However the Viggen shares a Mitsubishi TD04 with the 9-5 aero right?
Those are more reliable but doen’t mean they won’t fail.
So I suppose I should add some of the history…
The Viggen has never travelled more than 10k without an oil change.
Turbo and balance chain replaced at 60k at the cost of $4200. It’s only done 20k or so with a new turbo, you can’t tell me it’s gone already?? There is NO noise from the turbo, no whistling or any other signs.
The Viggen has been using more oil than it should for a while but after changing the oil about 2 weeks ago it used 1.5l in 10 days. The number 3 piston showed carbon deposits around the spark plug which means it’s burning oil there.
I trust the guys who diagnosed it far more than the Saab retailers here. The Saab service guys are GM (Holden) and to be honest I wouldn’t trust them with the Viggen. Most of them ask me what type of Saab it is!!! Couple that with the fact one of them tried to charge me $330 for an oil change!!! (I have proof of that if anyone from Saab Australia is reading).
The engine rebuild will cost about 5.5k, I have sourced a new engine for 6.5k and I’ve been quoted 1k to swap it over…. but here comes the dilemma.
I bought the Viggen for 40k. So far I’ve spent about 6k on repairs, and here’s another 7.5k. The resale is about 14-17k, so frankly it just doesn’t add up. I have NO guarantee something else wont go wrong and I have lost enough faith in the Viggen, as lovely as she is.
I’m very upset, frustrated, and disillusioned and as a result I’m being forced to reconsider my association with Saab.
This shouldn’t be happening to Saab’s marquee model at 85000k, it’s simply not good enough. My dad’s 300E has done 480,000k without a hiccup and cost him less than the Viggen was new.
Frankly it sux.
Richo,
How many kms with the BSR tune?
Not many, about 5k and oil was being used b4 that, plus the Turbo went at 60k.
The car has NEVER been stressed, so there is no excuse.
Rico (as you have been called in the other thread).
I’m not sure what it is that Saab did to the 2.3 before installation in the 9-3/9-5 but it’s clear they screwed up an engine that previously had a good rep in the 9000 (unless anyone else has other views).
It doesn’t matter whether the car has been stressed or not, it was a proven motor in the 9000 Aero and should have been bullet proof by the time it hit the Viggen and 9-5 but has been proven otherwise. Again, that’s why I have a ‘98 9000 as my daily driver.
turbin, it should be bullet proof yes.
emma, hahaha, very funny!
Remember the breathing kit we spoke about that is now the “must have” for all 9-5s ??? My wife’s 9-5 had oil leaks that could not be stopped until the breather pack was installed. According to Saabserve they’ve seen 9-5s smoking the hell out of them and been fixed with this kit. One thing is crystal clear for the 2.3 engines is that since these were used in the 9 s series they have suffered from overheating. This is typical of the 9-5 so your 9-3 would be even worse as the engine chamber is even smaller. I can show you my 9-5 and you’ll see how smooth it runs and how well it breathes.
Somethin dosent add up! Turbo & balance chains already?! Good oil change record. Has the pick-up tubes screen ever been looked at? Or the valve cover? Any signs of burnt oil build-up?
Clearly not a turbocharger issue, given that only one cylinder is oiled. Also, it’s a recently replaced component. Unlikely to be a valve stem seal because rarely just one fails at those km’s, so original diagnosis of damaged ring/bore pretty accurate. Could only confirm with head removed, at which point there’s no turning back. Could be an expensive fix if bore scored, as disassembly of engine required to rebore. Sourcing parts locally could also be troublesome. Cost of repair may outweigh benefits of straight out replacement, but economics probably dictate that with the money already outlaid on the car, it’s hardly worth the effort and expense.
DB
“The car’s only done around 80,000 kms and is only 8 years old. The car’s been enjoyed but never, ever thrashed. Richo’s pretty meticulous in looking after it and has poured around $12,000 into since he purchased it with around 30,000 kms on the clock.”
YIKES. This ($1,500/yr) price for upkeep scares the hell out of me. Is this typical for the ‘99-’02 9-3 line?
The simplest explanation is that this is related to your earlier turbo problem.
I am guessing that the car was poorly maintained before you got it, which created oil issues. One skipped oil change and/or cheap oil can really mess with this car.
The turbo failed first, however the rest of the engine was also sludged-up.
The fix is to have a conscientious mechanic do a proper rebuild. We’re talking engine-out, measure everything, acid bath, machine the heads, etc, etc.
The other option, of course, is to get a used engine. You may inherit someone else’s problems that way, but it should only take a few days.
Good luck
Bernard - I’ve sourced a brand new engine (2001 version) for 6.5K, still wrapped up and on the crate. the mechanic says I’d be way better off spending a touch more and throwing the new engine in, and of course I agree. But like Drew says, after everything that’s happened and the value of the Viggen as it stands, probably not worth it.
and Drew, how much would you pay for a Viggen with a new engine with 0km? want to revise ur 7k offer?
“YIKES. This ($1,500/yr) price for upkeep scares the hell out of me. Is this typical for the ‘99-’02 9-3 line?”
No, they just may be more of an issue with Viggens and their 2.3L engines. Relatively few of these were produced as they’re a high-end performance car like an Audi S4. Most of the 9-3s have the slightly boring but more reliable 2.0L engines.
Geoff - the VIggen engine is the same as that in the 95 Aero, I believe.
Richo,get in touch with me , I may be able to help or have some advice.
ps - and I’m still waiting a response from Saab Australia. A week later and I’ve not even received a confirmation my email has been viewed.
“Geoff - the VIggen engine is the same as that in the 95 Aero, I believe.”
I believe that’s correct but the original poster was asking if this experience was representative of the ‘99-’02 9-3 line. The 2.3L comes from the 9000 and 9-5 but put into the smaller engine chamber found on a 9-3 Viggen.
Sorry to hear of all the bad news of the viggen.
I have a 2002 Viggen, bought brand new, BSR chip since 30000 miles. Now has 170000 miles. Mobil 1 every 5000. Driven very hard all the time. Still does not burn any oil, engine never opened up, original turbo.