Comments

• vagabond said:
  

  I think the quality issue with Saab might be due to the work ethic of Swedish workers in a socialised country. In Sweden they take care of you from cradle to grave and workers have no incentive for doing good work, knowing that they would still get a cheque if fired or out of work.
  Just like goods from communist countries were no good and cars from England in the sixties when the social state began and there were labour problems. Hopefully when they start making these cars in other countries, problems will be solved.

  -February 9th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
• eggsngrits said:
  

  JD Power DOES NOT reflect reality. JD Power reflects consumer PERCEPTION. This is a real problem with relying on their numbers — they tally statistics from consumer surveys for their ratings.

  -February 9th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
• saabyurk said:
  

  Vagabond, I would like to argue your point but I don’t live in Sweden, so I’ll remain silent on that subject even though I hope pride in producing a great product can be enough worker incentive (plus I’m half Swedish). I’m assuming you’re not Swedish (correct me if I’m wrong), but I hope some Swedes respond to your comments above? True or false? Opinions please…

  -February 9th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
• joemama said:
  

  vagabound - while I can understand your comments regarding Swedish workers, I think it has more to do with Saab research and design, or more importantly, lack of design.

  If Saab’s sales were higher, I’m willing to bet their rankings would be higher as well.

  Yes, sometimes reality is based on perception.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 12:04 am
• cj said:
  

  Well, I think there are several reasons for this.

  First to comment on the first, and rather arrogant and stupid comment.

  Most people have pride in what they are doing, so also swedes. The factory workers have known for many years that quality needs to be improved, and they have (quite successfully worked on it). Quality for JD power is not always what you and I define as quality (e.g. engine do not break down, which does not happen too often in any car).

  In many ways sweden is more market economy than northamerica so please keep your thoughts for your self.

  To give you some examples (reflecting as a swede in canada). In sweden it is acceptable with Privat healthcare (that is paid for by the government). We have privately owned hospitals and this is all accepted by the public that something that gives higher quality (competition) also making the public healthcare better. Quite a few of the primary and secondary schools are privat / for profit (but funded by the government), also seen like something improving quality.

  In canada, a forreign company can not own more than 25% of an airliner and to drive a taxi you need to buy a license from the government (tenns of thousands of dollars). Taxis are only allowed to pick people up in a predefined zone. If they drive outside it they need to drive back empty.

  Some might argue that this is not market economy either soo please keep you thoughs for yourself…..

  Now on quality:

  Perception is one thing that plays a role in this. People say that toyotas are great, so if someone gets one they can live with it as an expeption. After all, its not often a new car breaks down, so people do not notice when it do happen.

  Secondly, we know that saab have had problems. In part these are due to building expensive cars (high expectations) combined with advanced technology (turbo) that tends to break down more often vs a more simple construction, and sometimes not been doing the homework releasing the models too early. This has especially been a problem in the past (think first year of OG 900 and NG 9-3). Some JD power items are just stupid (e.g. cupholder) but never the less they are complaints than should be dealt with. If americans want 10 cupholders they should have it. Period.

  It seemes to me that SAAB is always down on JD power (appear to improve on CR), and it should not be to hard to figure out why, and get the problems solved.

  CJ

  -February 10th, 2008 at 1:16 am
• zippy said:
  

  Vagabond, how is it that most North American built cars are rubbish? I dont think you analogy is correct one bit as the main problem seems to be with the 9-3, not the 9-5.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 1:19 am
• Adam said:
  

  Workers just put the cars together, they don’t make the decisions on where to save money or design the parts that fail too early.

  “Whilst SaabUSA still claim that Saab’s competitors are BMW, Audi and Mercedes, this appears to be little more that posturing.” Amen!
  Get real and be credible. VW, Acura, Subaru, and Volvo are the competition.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 1:30 am
• ctm said:
  

  vagabond:

  It seems that you have not been to Sweden yourself, and the only thing you know about the society here comes from The World Factbook by CIA. Want to experience a strong union that makes workers lazy? Go to Germany or France or Italy. Also, the main quality issues (SID, DI, oil sludge) has been about fault in design and construction of the parts, and were hardly anything the workers at the line in Trollhättan could do anything about.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 1:35 am
• Alex said:
  

  “Adam // Feb 10, 2008 at 1:30 am

  “Whilst SaabUSA still claim that Saab’s competitors are BMW, Audi and Mercedes, this appears to be little more that posturing.” Amen!
  Get real and be credible. VW, Acura, Subaru, and Volvo are the competition.”

  The problem I have is that go back to the 80’s and early 90’s and Saab was definitely up there with BMW and Audi. Compare the 9000 to the E34 and 100/200 and it was just as modern looking, with an interior that was easily as nice as those cars while often being the fastest of the bunch to boot. The NG900 even did a pretty good job at stacking up to the E36 and the audi 90, at least the interior and straight-line performance did (we won’t talk about the handling). To push the issue even more, sit in a c900 and then sit in an e30 and tell me why the Saab feels any less like a premium car than it’s competition.

  Back in the 80’s the c900 and e30 were the two biggest yuppie car icons of the day. If you wanted to show off, you bought a 325i or is, and if you wanted to look REALLY pretentious you bought a 900 turbo. In those days the two big manufacturers of Luxury cars were Mercedes and Jaguar, while Audi, Saab, and BMW built premium sports sedans. The big problem is that the Japanese forced the Germans to aggressively improve build quality and their interiors, while GM for some reason didn’t get the message and left Saab’s quality to languish.

  The problem is that today Saab just doesn’t stack up to the competition the way they used to. Saabs still COST the same relative to the BMW’s and Audi’s that they SHOULD be able to compete with, but the build quality has plummeted so much in recent years that they are more on the level of their VW and Subaru equivalents which all cost thousands less.

  So I for one am hoping that GM gets it’s rear in gear and boosts the “premium” feel of Saab back to the point of the brand being a valid BMW/Audi competitor.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 1:57 am
• eggsngrits (Author) said:
  

  Zippy: Most North American cars aren’t rubbish. If they are, then most Italian, French and English cars are, too. The Germans get a pass here, but only recently so — Opel is a German brand, after all, and Audi has only overcome their own quality issues of late.

  If any of you Euros actually drove an American car every now and then, you’d know that your comments are SO ten years ago. Sure, there are always bad cars in every market, and certainly Americans have at least their fair share of the bad ones (thank you Chrysler!).

  It is interesting to note that the world’s most envied automotive engineers (Daimler-Benz) couldn’t raise quality with the designs and manufacturing processes that belonged to Chrysler. I am interested in a great case study on manufacturing location vs. design: the Jeep Cherokees and Mercedes SUVs built in the United States vs. Graz, Austria. In theory these vehicles were identical designs.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 1:58 am
• vagabond said:
  

  You guys are right…to some degree.
  I have nothing against Swedish workers.
  I think the ‘perceived’ problems mostly lie with Saab management, designers and quality control specialists. If they’re not doing a good job, and the product is always way behind the other competitors,fire them.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 2:34 am
• Gio said:
  

  Just a little link for you, Swade… I thought you would probably like it!

  (sorry it’s in French… :-S )

  http://www.leblogauto.com/2008/02/saab-sauna-saunaab-bien-sur.html

  -February 10th, 2008 at 3:01 am
• Ken H said:
  

  Swedes can build good stuff, no doubt about it. Ericsson, Scania, Volvo trucks etc are top quality products. Saab Automobile has some work to be done in quality control, but that has little to do what passport the factory floor workers have.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 3:54 am
• 1985 Gripen said:
  

  I know we’re all getting a bit testy out of frustration with Saab, but lines like this are completely unnecessary and miss the point altogether: “Some JD power items are just stupid (e.g. cupholder) but never the less they are complaints than should be dealt with. If americans want 10 cupholders they should have it. Period.”

  I’m probably the one who complains about Saab’s cupholders the most. I don’t want 10 cupholders. I want at least ONE decent one. Saab’s cupholder design is LAME. If you’re going to do something, do it right. Not some half-hearted attempt. Saab has been let off the hook for this ongoing design flaw in their cars for years simply because not everyone sees the utility in a cupholder.

  To blame Americans for this is just ignorant. To turn the blame back at JD Power for Saab’s ongoing quality issues (and that DOESN’T just include the car “breaking down”, cj) is just stupid. EVERYONE, including us here knows Saab has quality problems. Get your head out of the sand. If you can’t stand criticism of Saab, then don’t start pointing fingers elsewhere to deflect blame.

  SAAB NEEDS TO GET BETTER. We’ve been saying that for years. Things have gone downhill since GM took over. Whether that’s GM’s fault or Saab’s fault, I don’t know. Just fix it.

  This brand is in serious jeopardy.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 4:37 am
• cj said:
  

  Hey 1985gripen. I think I was missunderstood. My point on the cupholder (more cool than functional and only 1 of them) is that if a large nr of people has a complaint that they see as a problem get it fixed.

  People can say that that the item that people are complaining about is “not a problem” (e.g. cupholders because most europeans do not use them as often as a northamerican comuter), but the fact of the matter is that people are complaining and the customer is always right. If a person are complaining he/she is less likely to buy a saab again, and even less recoment someone to to so.

  My points are that:

  1 - CR / JD Power etc has to be listen to.
  2 - There has been quality problems with the cars
  3 - There still are problems re finishes etc but the quality (reliability) has improved.

  But if a customer perceive the quality to be less good than it is (e.g. if you buy a saab you might know of the history of bad quality and then you do not give such high ratings).

  The point is that quality sometimes take time to fix and is also a function of the general perception of the brand as well as the specific qualilty of the specific customers car.

  cj

  -February 10th, 2008 at 6:26 am
• jc_atl said:
  

  My 2004 SAAB Aero seemed to be more handicapped by excessive cost cutting rather than poor workmanship. There were a few initial quality problems (sunroof was improperly installed at the factory, passenger seat sensor was way too sensitive from the factory, fading exterior door handles, etc). Still, these items were replaced under warranty and I would have been OK with the car if it didn’t feel like it was falling apart after about 30K miles. It was a daily driver, not a ton of aggressive driving, but the shocks were shot and the interior sound like it was flying apart on rough city streets.

  Swade is right - I have a 335i now and the build quality is superb, and yeah, perhaps they are overpriced but with Euro delivery discounts and much higher resale value I expect that I will come out about the same or financially ahead than if I’d bought another SAAB at a discount only to watch it be further discounted and my resale value diluted. SAAB’s got so much potential. The actual aesthetic design of the 2004 Aero were great - if the materials and build quality had been up to snuff I might still have it. People who shop for BMW’s, Audi’s and , according to GM, SAABs, are willing to pay more for higher quality. Since SAAB offers neither the perception nor the reality of equal or greater quality than its alleged competitors have, those shoppers head elsewhere. I know the sports sedan has had vast improvements since my 2004 so take my comments with that in mind - I’m a SAAB fan and pulling for them to get it together but had to spend my money elsewhere this time.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 7:08 am
• Mike C said:
  

  I should consider myself lucky. I have had three Saab Vert’s so far with minimal problems. A few little things that were fixed in very short order. I must say that when I went looking the third time around, I checked them all Audi, BMW, and Volvo. Saab offered me the most bang for the money and treated me well, mind you I purchased a CPO this time around. Audi did nothing for me and quality issues have just been corrected. BMW has a great product, but they to have problems, they just hide it better and we all know it. Saab has it’s problems just like all of them do AND THEY MUST BE FIXED TO STAY IN THE GAME. Don’t you think for one moment that Ford isn’t screwing up Volvo. I think that with these type of cars, you have to be dedicated to keeping up with it. A European car is not a Toyota and should be treated as such.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 8:16 am
• Kevin said:
  

  According to Dr. W. Edwards Deming
  Management is 90% to blame and the workers are 10% to blame for poor quality. It’s about the design of process and the execution of the process to achieve the end result. He was teacher and consultant to Japanese industry, through the Union of Japanese Scientists and Engineers during 1950, 1951, 1952, 1955, 1960, and 1965. Through Deming the Japanese learned quality control. In 1917, he enrolled in the University of Wyoming at Laramie. In 1921 he graduated with a B.S. in electrical engineering. In 1925, he received an M.S. from the University of Colorado and in 1928, a Ph.D. from Yale University. Both graduate degrees were in mathematics and mathematical physics. Dr. Deming studied music theory, played several instruments and composed two masses, several canticles and an easily sung version of the Star Spangled Banner. (Not your average GM corporate weasel.)

  JD Powers should separate quality issues from aesthetics. But in the end people will look at what thay get for the price that they pay. If the interoir materials feel cheap people will precieve the car to be a lower quality than one with materials with a better tactile feel even if the cheaper feeling material lasts longer. However, true quality is actually reliability. How long did it last before there was a failure? Was it assembled correctly or is it comming apart at the seams or falling to pieces? (For example the head liner is rattling and squeaking on my 2006 9-5 with 20,000 mi.)

  Motorola created six sigma to increase qualtiy of its products and trained its employess to create a culture of quality. These techniques can be used in any organization and General Electric did so under Jack Welch. GM and SAAB need to learn how to design products that have long MTBF Mean Time Between Failures and execute the design through near flawless manufacturing. Because a car at this price point cannot afford to be low quality precieved or otherwise.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 8:25 am
• mmmmm said:
  

  Maybe it’s because when ever Saab release a car it’s always what it should have been in the last model. Saab is always 5 years behind the competition in everything but safety.

  If they’re so hell bent of being competition to Subaru then price them that way.

  Over priced - under refined - terrible after sales service - poor resale value. So why would you buy one unless you were a die hard Saab fan?

  Now ask yourself why the sales a plummeting worldwide.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 8:52 am
• Waldemar said:
  

  The solution is simple, just like other brands with quality issues in the past like Hyundai, now with higher marks, maybe SAAB should emulate the Japanese and Korean quality control process and design…

  -February 10th, 2008 at 9:00 am
• NJ_Nick said:
  

  First, believe it or not, the projected depreciation on a new (2008) BMW 335xi is similar (in the US) to that of a new (2008) SAAB 9-3 Aero. Both are horrible!! Second, the cost for maintenance and repair is similar if not more for the bimmer over a 5-year period following purchase. Yes, the “ultimate driving machines” have their issues too….and so do Audi, Mercedes, VW, and Infiniti as well.

  We keep comparing SAAB to Toyota and Honda when it comes to reliability, but when it comes to performance and interior they are up against BMW, Audi and Mercedes. Basically, we want a car that has Honda-reliability, with BMW-performance and interior, for the price of a SAAB with incentives. No excuses for SAAB. They need to get their shit together and fast, but let’s be realistic here.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 9:18 am
• Adam said:
  

  Alex, I’m not disputing that at some point in the past Saab may have been a Audi/BMW/MB competitor… but that was more like two decades ago. Since then the entry level luxury/sport market has gotten deeper and broader, and Saab now competes with the marques I mentioned so why pretend?

  -February 10th, 2008 at 10:01 am
• DMR said:
  

  NJ_Nick,

  That’s exactly what I want in a car. Why is it too much to ask for?

  -February 10th, 2008 at 10:32 am
• Alex said:
  

  “Adam // Feb 10, 2008 at 10:01 am

  Alex, I’m not disputing that at some point in the past Saab may have been a Audi/BMW/MB competitor… but that was more like two decades ago. Since then the entry level luxury/sport market has gotten deeper and broader, and Saab now competes with the marques I mentioned so why pretend?”

  Because if GM can harp on about returning Cadillac to it’s former glory they should also at least make it LOOK like they’re trying to return Saab to it’s former glory once again.

  And it’s not 20 years ago, even for most of the 90’s Saab carried a reputation that was at least as good as Audi’s and easily better than Acura or Infiniti’s.

  In Saab’s segment it’s all about product, product, product, and GM seriously needs to quit the excessive costcutting and compromising in terms of interior materials, design, and options if they want to keep Saab from going the way of Oldsmobile. GM needs to realize that it will need to bite the bullet and pay out some real money to Saab R&D so that they can end up with a car that can at least try to compete with the 3-series on something other than price.

  -February 10th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

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