Saab XWD and eLSD update
You may remember that a few days ago I promised to write to Saab Sweden and Saab USA with regard to the eLSD setup on XWD-equipped Saabs that aren’t the Turbo-X.
The Turbo-X comes with the full XWD setup, including the eLSD (which splits torque from side to side at the rear wheels). The outstanding query concerned the availability and price of the eLSD on XWD-equipped Aero models (i.e. non Turbo-X).
I’ve received a response from Saab Sweden, as follows:
….our market offer during MY08 is as follows:
* eLSD standard on TurboX
* Aero XWD does not have eLSD available, but still be using among the most advanced AWD systems on the market.
The mix up could be that we mentioned that eLSD will be optional on the XWD at the launch. At that time the TurboX still was a secret, so we could not disclose everything. Now when it’s public; - it’s made available in the optional TurboX model.
Best Regards,
From this it appears that there will be no eLSD availability on Aero models equipped with XWD. So it appears that if you want an eLSD in a 2008 model Saab 9-3, you’d better sign up for a Turbo X - and quick!
Of course, this raises a bunch of further questions…..like……WHY?
I’ve sent off a number of questions in response and mentioned that I don’t think this is going to make a great deal of sense to many. The eLSD is the main equipment item that sets the XWD system apart. For it not to be offered seems quite strange.
The eLSD is therefore another differentiation between the Turbo-X and other XWD-equipped Saabs that will be offered this year.
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Typical :(, I’m quite disappointed by this.
What advantage then, will the Saab system over other estabilished 4wd system, not to mention Hyundai(!!!) and VW will be using Haldex in 08/09 line up too, ehich may offer eLSD option.
Another advatage lost pointlkessly.
I so hope this isn’t the same decision for Europe.
Swade, would you know how many Turbo-X models are still available?
So… without the eLSD… Doesn’t that make it AWD instead of XWD ?? I fail to see a difference between the two…
The XWD system will still be electronically controlled. That’s what sets it apart from other viscous clutch systems. IE: When you launch a subaru (in stock form), the front wheels spin, then the AWD system kicks in, then the rear wheels begin to turn and propel the car. When you launch a XWD Saab (with or without eLSD), the computer already knows you’re sitting still, so it immediately sends up to 100% of the torque to the rear wheels.
Likewise, using the various ESP controls in the vehicle, the system is electronically controlled to reduce oversteer and understeer, to keep the car extremely controllable.
I look forward to seeing the difference, personally, but I think only the Stig would really notice the difference between w/ and w/o eLSD. But as stated, if you want eLSD all you have to do is purchase a Turbo-X. It’s just like the SPG back in the day. Yes, it’s the same as all the other ‘08+ 9-3s… but with an added feature and different color.
Is the Turbo-X so hard to sell that they have to differentiate it by NOT including the eLSD as an option for the Aero? Strange…
Ubermich - let’s not forget the distinctive exterior styling! Ooh, and the carbon fiber trim inside too.
…a couple of the many features that made me order one.
Talondriel - I’m waiting for a mail back from my dealer as to how many are left (in the UK at least). Mine is number 34 of 500 and I ordered it up at the beginning of November.
My dealer did actually mention that they were getting in one TurboX for each of their 4 Saab showrooms as a demonstrator. Not sure if other Saab dealer groups are getting the same (Saab GB decision?) or whether it was just their own (Eastern/Western Group) idea.
What is the delay in getting XWD to dealers? I fail to see the point behind announcing a vehicle without having the ability to bring the product to market shortly thereafter. All indications point to a Northern Spring arrival. Why? The vast majority of customers in the market for AWD vehicles want one for bad weather handling - like snow in the winter! Point being, Saab is loosing potential sales (again).
BTW, I have no problem with eLSD being an exclusive Turbo-X offering. The Turbo-X needs SOMETHING outside of different front and rear spoilers to differentiate it from an Aero…if Saab did not have the ability to bump the Turbo-X horsepower over 300, it should have been shelved until there was a clear distinction between the offerings.
What this tells me is that many reviews of the 2008 9-3 are inaccurate and potentially misleading. If my memory serves me right, the 2008 9-3 reviews from mid-2007 were of Aeros equipped with XWD and eLSD - making both press and public impressions of the car’s performance inaccurate in all versions but the Turbo X, a limited production version of the vehicle.
This also just happens to annoy the heck out of me since I wanted the full XWD + eLSD package rather than just XWD.
And Swade, thank you for checking on this for us!
Saab should put you on retainer at their communications department since you do a better job of informing potential customers than they do.
Update regarding my previous post…
Apparently since the order book opened at the beginning of November my dealer says that about 100 of the 500 TurboX’s have been sold - which I find quite surprising. - He did go on to say that that was actually a good figure since Saab GB are not starting to officially advertise the car until Late February.
I suppose it makes sense - Unless you’re a car geek you probably wouldn’t know about it.
Ubermich - A Subaru typically splits the torque 50% front and 50% back with their AWD system. The exceptions with Subaru are the STi which you can manual set the torque split, the Legacy GT spec B which changes with the sport setting, and the automatics that start at 60/40 and switch to 50/50 when traction is limited. Honda’s SH-AWD system can only send 70% of torque to the rear wheels.
IMO, XWD is still one of the better awd systems on the market and is possibly comparable to BMW’s xDrive system.
These things have always puzzled me — why do car manufacturers only allow certain combinations, when others are seemingly easy?
One of my favorites was a Toyota thing — when we bought my wife’s RAV4 8 or 9 years ago, you couldn’t get the ABS brakes unless you got the upgraded interior. What the heck do seats have to do with the brakes?
It’s an age-old practice. I’m just resigned to it now.
I agree with you E&G. Due to lack of headroom, I can’t drive any vehicles with sunroofs. So, I am limited to base to mid models and select manufacturers.
Maybe after the TurboX runs course they’ll add the eLSD as an option for the Aero. Doesn’t make sense to have a cheaper car with essentially the same drivetrain as the TurboX especially on it’s introductory year.
Wouldn’t there be economies of scale if the eLSD system were just packaged with XWD? Also seems that for SAAB to make use of positive feedback for the entire system it should quite soon become available in all models.
I was told in early December than 125 Turbo -X’s had been sold in the UK.
Im surprised to see that you can get £5-6k off the list, which does tempt me - but i did promise myself i wouldnt buy another black car after the vert (id have a Turbo-X in arctic white though!)
Surely even from a financial point of view it would make sense to offer it at some point in the future. I would imagine the R+D costs in applying an eLSD system to the tuboX would significantly eat into any profits made over the 2000 cars which will actually benefit from it.
I don’t think this will be the last time it will be seen on a Saab, even if it’s not the 93.
jwlanky - eh? £5-6k off list? tell me more! I’ve put a 10% deposit down on mine, but I’m looking at paying full whack in April - which when specced up is £38K
Never ever pay full whack for a Saab.
Do i get commission if i save you a bit?
It would be rude of me not to at least buy you a case of booze! Tell me more, please….
autoebid.com are offering the best *minimum* saving that i can find. When youve specced your car and got a price, check the 1st reg pricing link which puts a couple hundred £’s on top so it isnt prereg’d.
There are several other sites offering big discounts too.
Holy smokes, you’re not wrong! £6,271 off list once it was specced up.
Have mailed my dealer to see if they’ll match it, if they don’t, I’m walking.
if the deal goes through I’ll be sending you your case of whatever you drink!
Thanks for the tip!
I bet your dealer will give you a load of generic horror stories to try and put you off.
I saved 13% off list off my vert when 4 years ago from a net site. My local dealer was livid. i gave them the opportunity to get with £1500 off the price, but they wouldnt budge £1. Their loss.
Hope you save a few squid.
So it appears to me they’re treating the Turbo-X as if it’s simply an options package on top of the Aero.
I don’t think anyone’s going to disagree that this is terrible news.
I guess the XWD system is still superior to many other systems w/o eLSD as it’s still capable of transferring a larger percentage of torque from the front wheels to the rear wheels, even if it can’t transfer torque to the rear wheels independently, right?
This irks me more that we’ve been waiting this long for AWD on the 9-3, they FINALLY listen to their customers and offer it after saying for years it isn’t possible. We assumed it took a little longer to market because they were holding-out for the market leading system rather than just throwing on an existing system. Then we get a system which is largely handicapped from what is possible. Poor decision-making at that highest levels of Saab, IMHO.
I hope you’re able to speak with Jan-Ake about this in Detroit, Swade.
Kaz: it will be the same for Europe. That was the official response from Saab Sweden, not Saab USA.
I wonder if the 2.0T w/ XWD will have the eLSD option in ‘09.
Gripen - iirc, the XWD system can transfer 100% of the torque to either front or rear axle. Also, it can transfer up to 40% of the rear torque inbetween driveshafts.
I don’t know how the XWD will operate with TCS but without eLSD, the system should be able to transfer some power across wheels by applying the brakes on the tires with the least traction. Really only useful for low traction conditions and not so much for performance.
No eLSD for non-TurboX models, great move Saab! Saab could have considerably upped its profile in the USA with a ’suggestive’ marketing campaign featuring eLSD. Judging by the ’success’ Saab appears to be having with the TurboX in the UK (a Saab-loving nation if there ever was one) with massive discounts I may yet get my hands on one of the 100 being sold here in Canada as I doubt they will sell. Hell, Saab Canada havent even put a price on the thing yet!
Overall, I am disillusioned and hope, like 1985 Gripen, that the 09 2.0T will come with eLSD and XWD otherwise Im visiting my local BMW dealer in late summer!
Oh I forgot, Saab made a MASSIVE mistake not giving the TurboX over 300bhp as there is nothing to differentiate it from the Aero. Sad but true!
There isn’t much to say that hasn’t been said already.
Saab’s AWD system without the eLSD is no different from the haldex systems you can buy in any VW or volvo product, and like those products it means that AWD is useful for not much more than straight-line acceleration and bad-weather driving. That’s a great selling point for sure, and I’d be surprised if saab can’t move at least a few AWD 9-3’s up here.
The point is that GM had a real chance here to paint saab as a performance LEADER, not the “badge-engineered from jets” also-ran that most people think it is. An eLSD-equipped ~300hp 9-3 aero that could spank a 335i both from the line and in the twisties would have been a great tool for the brand, but GM really seems to have blown it both in how much power the car makes and by not offering the eLSD in all models. If honda can sell SH-awd in the RDX (and the next-gen TSX), then saab should offer it across all of it’s model range if it wants to be truly competitive.
Don’t even get me started on the “turbo X only making 280 hp” bit. If volvo for the 2004 s60r could squeeze 300 hp from a 2.5 liter engine design that’s even older than the northstar, then it’s inexcusable that saab couldn’t squeeze the same hp/liter numbers from their much more modern engine in 2008.
But then by volvo’s hp/liter numbers we’d have a 336 hp turbo X that would steal magazine covers and rave reviews from the new CTS and that just wouldn’t be right now would it?
So you could say I’m disillusioned too
eLSD will come for aero next year I guess when wxd will be available in the smaller displacements…
Alex - The current quattro AWD system is different than the new XWD. It only allows up to 80% torque to the front axle compared to 100% of the new system. However, both allow 100% of torque to the rear axle.
Without eLSD, XWD is still better than VW/Audi’s current awd.
I didn’t mean the quattro system as it’s found in the A4, A5, A6, Q7, and A8, I meant the 4motion system you can get in the passat, golf, jetta, R32, and the “quattro” system in the TT. The true quattro that you get in the A cars is a fully mechanical differential-based system, while all of the other cars use the same haldex system that you’ll get on any “XWD” car short of the turbo X.
Before we get into a huge debate about this. The Saab TurboX is getting the newest Haldex version dubbed XWD(or version 4). No other manufacturer’s currently have this version in any of their production models, including VW.
There are differences the between versions, so they are not equal.
I went to the http://www.saabusa.com site and discovered the Turbo-X in a whole new meaning. That Sedan is sooooo sexy!!! Wow, what a beautiful car it is!
GM!!! Please make this something special! I guess “A company called- Hirsh” could make it a 400hp beast and 0-100km/h would then be approx 4 seconds…??? Top speed 300+ km/h?? 21 inch rims in turbine style? Why dont Saab try to beat the Bugatti Veyron´s record of 407,2 km/h with an Aero-X? Don´t believe the americans beat Bugatti… he,he (Sorry guys) ,Saab enhanced Ethanol V8 engíne.. Four twin scroll turbos and ca 1600 hp in a limited edition. Cann we beat it? Can Saab be the benchmark??
Damn it, Tompa! I drooled all over my desk!
Take the body of the Aero-X.. Have a Corvette engine in it with four Saab twin-scroll turbos on that, BioEthanol converted engine, and we have a GO.. OR?
Look at the Turbo-X sedan…. Why wouldn´t this be everyones wishing or wet dream for a new car this year.. GM marketing HELLO??!!!! You have gold here! Caddy looks American, Saab does not like BMW, BMW and Audi… GET THE POINT???? Please doo sell your American vehicles (Great cars) but please take care of your investments in high profile Euro-cars.. Saab is the only you have. (No Bob Lutz.. Cadillac is not a european brand.. Never will be so give it upppppp!!!!!!) The BLS has seen it´s days. Accordíng to europeans a Saab 9-3 and they rather by a Saab with lower depriciation… So STOP LUTZ!! Spend your money on Saab instead.
It’s a really disappointing decision.
If I can afford an XWD I want to have the advantage of the eLSD too, of course.
But Turbo-X is produced in very limited number, I wonder if any will be available for Hungary…
It IS disapointing (God I hate this plaster for my broken hand! It takes forever to write something!)
Why eLSD is only for the Turbo-X is a mystery… And f*cked up too.
You know what Ivan? I´ll come visit you the comming sommer. It wil not be in a Saab, but I´ll come down there. Been to Budapest before. Whats the name of that wondeful famous café? Something with a `K` isn´t it? Kr someting. Meters and meters of handmade chocolates! Coffee out of this world.. GO VISIT HUNGARY!!!!
Todays Saab Fighterjet (Though now SAAB Tech).. Look at those manouvers! 9 f*ckin´G´s!!! If Sweden were apart of NATO I would suspect that it would be easier to sell the Griffin figher jet. both Finland and Denmark bought American fighters although the Swedish Griffin are cheaper and more suítable for their type of country.. and superior… Says alot about Americas domination averall and money I´d say. Saab Tech and British Aerospace is in colaboration.. The problem they both have is that Sweden is a Neutral country… The Griffin fighter has an american GE engine. Serviced because of Swedish laws by Volvo Aero. The rest of the plane is totaly Saab.. None is Volvo.. Many Volvo persons will say that the Griffin has a Volvo Engine.. It´s not true! It´s american and produced by Volvo uner licence. Volvo Aero Service the engines…
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=SAAB+Gripen+STOL+Capabilities+&search=Search
Look at it!!!!
And then civil:
Joint venture. Swedish, American, Spanish, Frensh etc. But Drawn and enginered by Saab Linköping (where it all started.. And where I were born) The Saab 340 and 2000. (The 2000 longer and wireless,)
This is a CGI, but shows how beautiful this commercial airliner is… It´s now gone.. Don´t know why. Some Canadian company took over the market for it and lowered prices (DASH) realy low compared to Saab, and has in a few years crached several planes.. Saab did not.. Small country… Small impact on the world.. WHY???
Saab 2000
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Toulouse+-+Biarritz+with+Air+France+Regional+SAAB+2000&search=Searc
The J37 Viggen.. First flew in the 60´s and were a develpment with expriance from the J 35 Dragon (Story follows)
The Viggen is a huge fighterjet, but still outmanouvers the F16 and it´s maximumspeed is higher than former Soviet rivals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=431BxPYZDrk&NR=1
The J35 Draken is very well known to me since I grew up in the town of Arboga were the fighterjets engines at that time where serviced.. (I lived there between 1973 a nd 1988.. Hmm I´m old.. Born ´71) The J35 Dragon was the first delta wing aircraft in the WORLD!!! A Saab and yet agáin world first. And the fastest of it´s time…. 2.8 Mach..Production model.. in 1958!!!!!!!!!!! There are still not many that can do that sort of speed today!
Eat your shorts USA, Russia and Japan!!!
Sweden, Denmark and Austria had them i service.. Look at the manouvers they can make.. Stop in mid air. From 1000km/h down to a mear 100 in a spli second.. NOT A SINGLE NEW AIRCRAFT COULD DO
THAT NOW!!! And thats 12-13 years after the end of the second world war!!!!
The downside of the Draken (Dragon) was it´s reactiontime to turn.. It kinda draaaagd when it turned..
The Drakens and Viggens are now nearly all slaughterd.. I mourn them. Why take them to pieces??? Hate that. They are a a bit of my childhood…
Hope that GM can bring some sort of feeling and take inspiration from theese masterpieces into the comming cars.
They are born from Jets.. Aren´t they??
The one and only J35 Dragon fighter… Mid air stop.. HELT OTROLIGT!!! Fu***** incredible!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqiDEcfSnXs
LOOK AND ADMIRE…
So all those timings beating a Porsche Tubro, Japanese competitors, whatever have been in a Turbo-X? I though I saw regular Aero’s pulling around the cones, or were they equipped with eLSD?
When I read this article I get surprised. Here GM sits on the, for moment, most advanced 4wd.system and do not use it. Audi are where they are becuese they let many people buy a car with it and then a lot of the people don´t want to change.
This moment is a golden opportunity for SAAb and GM and somebody, in the GM-top, decide it would cost to much. I think, in ten years time, that GM can see that was a major misstake.
I hope SAAB can talk GM into sell eLSD, in the likewise way as AUDI and see the sellingratings go up and give SAAB and GM a new nisch.
Ola C
PS. sorry for any bad spelling DS.
So Saab is using the XWD moniker for the standard AWD Haldex system? That comes close to false advertising IMO. I thought the “X” in XWD was meant to connote left-right cross-coupling as accomplished by the eLSD unit. If you delete the eLSD, all you have left is the non-XWD Haldex. Its either XWD or AWD - You shouldn’t cripple the enhanced system and then keep the enhanced name - Not fair!