There’s been a number of comments on the Saab Turbo X in recent days, so I felt like this layover in San Francisco might give me a good opportunity to write down a few thoughts on the car and maybe tie some of those thoughts together.
The power
Given the current confusion over the Turbo X vs the XWD Aero, it seems plainer than ever to me that Saab should have boosted the power to around the 300hp mark as a prime differentiator between the Turbo X and the XWD version of the Saab 9-3 Aero that will follow it.
This always seemed like an absolute no-brainer to me anyway, but the lack of explanation from Saab mekes the situation stand out even more. So let’s deal with that….
The difference
The primary difference between the Saab Turbo X and the 9-3 Aero equipped with XWD for MY2008 is that the Saab Turbo X will feature the full XWD system – including eLSD – as standard. The XWD-equipped Saab 9-3 Aero won’t have access to the eLSD in the 2008 model year. That will come in 2009.
In addition, it’ll have some mechanical enhancements such as a strengthened gearbox and torque limits removed in low gears, it’ll have special trim and styling, and it’ll have the cachet of being a launch model for a revolutionary new system that’s produced in limited numbers.
When the XWD system was launched, Saab said that the eLSD unit would be an option for Aero XWD models but they didn’t say anything about that not coming in 2008. What they meant was that the Turbo X would be an optional model for purchase in 2008, but they couldn’t say that outright because the Turbo X hadn’t been unveiled at that time.
Now, if that last paragraph seems confusing, you’re getting an idea of how poorly explained and managed this rollout has been.
The real difference
So what we end up with is a car that’s meant to emphasise the XWD system and little-to-no publicity explaining this fact. The confusion about the Turbo X and the XWD equipment levels is a testimony to this – and this is amongst Saab enthusiasts, the people who should have a fast grasp on the situation.
Slow Sales
The good news is that despite all of this, Saab have managed to take pre-orders on a car that hardly anyone’s seen, relatively few people have driven, and one that hasn’t been advertised yet. Actual production of the cars to be sold hasn’t even started yet.
Publicity about the car has been limited to the news stories from the Frankfurt Motor Show last year, Saab’s own Turbo X microsite and the grass roots coverage of the vehicle on sites such as TS and others.
Despite this meagre coverage, they’ve managed to take some deposits on the car, which I think is actually pretty encouraging. SaabUSA have offered paces in the Aero Academy for the first 100 buyers up until January 31st. That’s one-sixth of their allocation for the entire country. If you can sell one-sixth of your volume sight-unseen and without any meaningful publicity then you’ll be feeling encouraged.
We’d all have liked to see the Turbo X sell out within a month of being announced, but the fact is that most of the market doesn’t know about it.
incentives
In my mind – and this is why Saab HAVE to do a better job of marketing this car in the next few months – financial incentives on the Turbo X cannot be an option.
The full XWD system is brilliant and it deserves a special launch model like the Saab Turbo X. This car deserves all the exclusivity it’s getting. It just needs to be spelled out better than what it has been so far.
But that takes us back to the power output. 300hp definitely would have helped in selling this car as it’s bottom line numbers like that that people look for when they’re doing their initial shopping. 300hp is definitely possible – Hirsch will likely make it so soon after the car launches, I’m sure. But it should have been there from the get-go.
the car itself
I’m very confident that the people who do put money down on this car aren’t going to be disappointed in any way whatsoever. The system is that good and enthusiasts do like the notion of having something that’s a limited edition. Viggen owners will know what I mean.
The Saab Turbo X will be one heck of a great car to drive and the limited edition trim and styling looks awesome. I’d have liked it if it went even further (carbon leather dash trim, anyone?) but overall, it still looks menacing. The wheels have caused some conjecture with one or two people, but I’m sure the incas on the 99Turbo did as well and they’re considered classics now. Personally, I absolutely love the new wheels. They’re probably my favourite styling feature of the car.
If you want to know what the Turbo X will look like with other 18 inch wheels, visit the NAIAS. There were some issues with the wheel caps at the Boston Auto Show, so Saab sent a new set of wheels for fitting prior to the Detroit show, only someone forgot to actually fit them:
I like these double-blade wheels, but that vehicle above pales just a little in comparison to this:
Now THAT is a limited edition performance car.
Summary
I think the Saab Turbo X will be one heck of a car. I’ve driven a car with the full XWD spec and it was absolutely brilliant.
I just think Saab haven’t done too well in spelling out what’s special about this car. The market expectation is that this will be a distinctive, high performing vehicle and Saab are going to try and sell its performance credentials on the XWD system alone. so far, in very limited publicity, they haven’t performed in that area. A power bump would definitely help the Saab Turbo X’s credentials as a limited edition performance vehicle.
It’ll be interesting to see, once the marketing does ramp up, what it will look like.
I believe that Saab will sell all of their Turbo X’s reasonably quickly once the campaign starts and I really hope they don’t slash the price to do so. They can’t do that on a limited edition anyway, especially when they’ve already sold some at the full price.
I’d have one if I could, and I heard from Steve Shannon that he’ll be interesting in picking up a SportCombi version with a stickshift. That’d be my choice, too.
Hey Swade, and welcome to NorCal! I’m only about 2.5-3 hours north east of you as I type.
I agree that the Turbo-X should have 300+ HP. It’s supposed to be a halo car of sorts, right? Give it the full halo car treatment.
If it’s a tech showcase, then make that clear. So far, there’s not been a whole lot of clarity from Saab as to what the car is (or isn’t).
Anyway, enjoy the city, and the wonderful weather we’re having today.
~P
P.S. I did a dealer search for SF Saab dealers. Ellis Brooks Saab: 877-213-4810
Their website looks a little underwhelming.
Not one thing you said that I could find to disagree with. Very well said.
I agree on your points, but I really wouldn’t start advertising this car until just before it comes-out (in March or so). I mean, if you advertise it this early you risk it becoming “old news” before it even comes out.
If they create a large demand for it at the last minute (say, in late February) and people rush to the dealer hopefully it’ll sell-out before they have to add incentives to it. I really think they showed it off WAY too early.
Saab made that mistake twice last year. They showed-off XWD like 8 months before you can actually drive a car equipped w/ it off a dealer lot, making it seem like an ETERNITY before it actually came out. Then the Turbo-X.
I understand Saab is trying to stem the tide of dealers and buyers losing interest in the brand due to lack of new models, but showing stuff a really long time before it comes out and making people wait is the wrong way to go too.
I mean, look at the 9-4X. If you want to drive one home you’ll have to wait until around July 2009. It’s still January 2008 right now!!!
I’ll reiterate what I’ve mentioned previously – I was at my local Saab dealer this past weekend and the salesman said they would be selling the Turbo X at MSRP….wishful thinking, that got me out of the dealership very quickly. I may go back after October when they start getting desperate. No direct-injection, no bluetooth, no 19″ wheels, etc…i am not paying anywhere near MSRP, and noone else should either. These could be up to $7500 off MSRP come the end of 2008 (in the US)…
Swade: You forgot one more difference (you alluded to it) that does not make sense.
ALL(!) US Aero’s (9-3, 9-5,…) get to go to Aero Academy, but ALL Turbo-Xs, which are arguably superior to the 9-3 Aeros, do not… Of course they don’t tell you till afterword that you don’t actually get to go on the Road Atlanta course.
Steven: where did you get that info?
I thought I understood it that if you buy an Aero you have to pay to attend the Aero Academy, but if you buy one of the first 100 Turbo-Xs they waive the Aero Academy fee. If you buy Turbo-X number 101 you can still attend the Aero Academy, but you’ll have to pay for it.
If you buy any model other than an Aero model you can’t attend.
Even the 9-7X Aero qualifies, but they obviously don’t have any 9-7X Aero vehicles at the Academy to drive. You’d have to drive either a 9-3 or 9-5.
@6: So you’re basically saying since I bought my 2006 SC Aero they’ve discontinued the free program? Well , that sucks big time!
Looked at the Saab USA web site and now it says anyone can attend for a fee, no Aero required and a new Saab will get you a $995 off the $1495 fee.
http://www.saabusa.com/images/aero/aero_academy.pdf
Looks like the free for all new Aero purchases ended in August 2007?
http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/bb/general/index.html?bID=199965
BTW, “Free” still means you have to pay to get there and pay to spend the night.
Swade, well said, I agree. The wheels were the only thorn for me when I first saw them, but now that I’ve ordered one they’re actually growing on me in a similar way to the Dame Edna headlights on the facelifted 95.
As far as the 300BHP issue is concerned – at least Hirsch are offering the upgrade, I for one will be placing my order with Hirsch as soon as I can. This obviously won’t be practical solution in countries where it would affect the warranty though…
I’m thinking that if Hirsch can get the 300BHP out of the setup and Saab are willing to keep that under warranty (in the UK at least), then Saab obviously have faith in the 300BHP setup being mechanically sound. So why don’t they just fit the darned thing as part of the standard setup – and then advertize it as a proper 300BHP car!? It’s not too late, Saab!
Slightly off topic here, but what is the difference between XWD and XWD w/ eLSD? How will the lack of eLSD impact handling, safety, etc.? To be honest, I’ve yet to read something that makes that distinction clear.
SaabWookiee,
The eLSD is what sends the torque to each individual rear wheel. This is also what makes the new system unique compared to other AWD systems: not only does the rear axle receive power, but it can be split and controlled between those rear wheels.
IMHO, the XWD system loses a good portion of its uniqueness and appeal if the eLSD is not present.
SaabWookie: the XWD system means that in normal conditions the engine’s power is biased toward the front wheels, but when needed it can transfer up to 100% of that power to the rear wheels.
So at a dead stop if you step on it the system is “smart” enough to transfer all of the power to the rear wheels.
The XWD system constantly is adjusting the power ratio between the front and rear wheels depending on driving conditions.
Most AWD systems are a mechanical system which require a wheel to slip before a clutch engages to send power to the opposite wheel and they also use braking to help the car get its footing. The XWD system is electronic and “predicts” wheel slippage before it happens so that slippage isn’t required to transfer power. Further, it doesn’t resort to braking, but instead to powering the opposite wheel.
The eLSD simply transfers power between the two rear wheels. I don’t know in what situation this would be advantageous, but I have absolutely no experience with AWD systems.
I would think (but don’t know for sure) that eLSD is more advantageous for performance driving, such as on a track, than for inclement weather driving.
@6: For some reason my response to you is stuck “awaiting moderation”. Maybe I said a dirty word?
SportMode (RJ), 1985 Gripen,
Thank you for the clarifications on eLSD. I appreciate the assist!
I had previously thought that the left/right slippage/traffic would be handled by the traction control system. This sheds some new light on that as well.
Someone ‘forgot’ to fit the new wheels on the car for Detroit? Seriously? It’s in the details, lads…
Steven: if you put more than one link in your comment it does that. Did you put more than one link in there?
@6: Yeah, here is the msg with one link…
So you’re basically saying since I bought my 2006 SC Aero they’ve discontinued the free program? Well , that sucks big time!
Looked at the Saab USA web site and now it says anyone can attend for a fee, no Aero required and any new Saab purchase will get you a $995 off the $1495 fee.
http://www.saabusa.com/images/aero/aero_academy.pdf
Looks like the free for all new Aero purchases ended in August 2007.
BTW, “Free” still means you have to pay to get there and pay to spend the night.
Steven: here’s the link.
Actually, I had forgotten that they’ve opened-up the Aero Academy to anyone who wants to pay for it. You don’t even have to buy a Saab.
I don’t think the Aero Academy program ever included airfare to Atlanta and accommodations, even when it was free to purchasers of Saab Aero vehicles.
I still suspect that the 300hp mark was ‘missed’ given that the engine uses a torque based engine management system and that the engine puts out 295 lb-ft of torque at an extremely low 2000RPM. There may have been some durability concerns factored in here – and for the record, that is a lot of torque.
Keep in mind – in an AWD application there is ‘opportunity’ to split the torque between the wheels which gives enhanced traction – however that tends to exploit weaker driveline components. On hard acceleration (especially) from a hard stop – the weakest link in the drive train will be put under stress in an effort to transfer all the torque to the driveline.
Imagine dropping the clutch in a manual transmission application with AWD. The tires do not slip so the clutch does – and we all love the smell of burnt clutch material.
Now, I am sure nobody would do that….
You may also want to consider that Saab may have ‘played it safe’ and possibly underrated the engine output as well. Turbocharged engines output can vary depending on fuel usage, intake air temperature and humidity. Someone will dyno one of these and if they don’t have close to 280hp – that could be a public relations nightmare. Just ask Ford and Mazda about that.
Steve Shannon should be driving a Turbo X model SportCombi. It is a great car.
Tedjs: thanks for the technical reasons possibly explaining “only” 280 bhp. At the S.O.C. Jan-Willem Vester told me the same thing when he, Steve Shannon and I were talking over lunch. He said, “Saab drivers know, it’s not about the horsepower, it’s about the torque” or something to that effect.
I also vaguely remember something in the same conversation (I wasn’t recording it or taking notes because I wasn’t expecting to come and sit with me where I had previously been dining at a table alone and aloof) Steve Shannon said about other car companies getting into trouble over-estimating their vehicles’ output so the Turbo-X could very well have pretty close to 300 bhp.
It’s sort of like when you get a computer processor. Tech-heads can “overclock” a processor and get it to run faster than its labeled speed because in order to account for differences from processor to processor they have to rate them lower than each individual one would test at.
So out of the entire run of Turbo-Xs maybe most would be closer to 300 horsepower, but there’s a few that are closer to 280.
Then again, it’s that 400 Nm of torque that’s most important in this case anyway.
Sorry I didn’t remember these conversations until Tedjs’s comments above brought them back to my memory.
Mismanaged indeed. IMHO they should have really made this into their halo car.
Give it 300+BHP, then LEAD the market assault. I.e. Use it as a launch model for the 08 model, not a follow up AFTER the standard models are released.
Then send it to all the magazines, send it around tracks, send it to races. Advertise the hell out of it, just advertise the Turbo-X. Sale of standard will follow the halo car.
Saab tells everyone how wonderful this XWD with eLSD is then doesn’t want to sell it to us unless you want to spend a silly amount of money for a bit of carbon fibre on the dash, weird looking wheels, a body kit with spoiler and some ‘supposed’ chassis upgrades aka the TurboX. Here folks, is the reason that Saab is not doing very well – it promises and doesn’t deliver. Anyone who buys a TurboX now is mad as there are going to be loads of them ‘going cheap’ come September of this year which is when we will try and snap one up. The Aero model for 2009 is going to be a TurboX, except you get to choose the colour you want. Sad but true which is why I get a bit dissolutioned with Saab sometimes.
Hii Swade,
Great article – I’m one of the “blind” that ordered one sight unseen
I had a couple of questions:
1. Do you know when manufacturing will actually start?
2. You mentioned a change in wheels. does this mean the wheels as pictured on the mini-site are not coming on the car? I liked those wheels quite a bit.
Any info would be great.
Beren I think he insinuated that these were alternate wheels.
Agree with everything + great summary ++++ many thanks for a great reporting in Detroit!
Anyway, 1985G – I thought that sounded like typicaly saab. 280bhp is about rightsizing, and the slogan “saab drivers know its not about the horsepower but the tork” (picture my self a car accelerating away from the camera in the add….).
Caddy will have lots of crome and horsepower, saab will have the opposite but similar performance….
Beren, to answer your questions: no, those standard Saab 18 inch wheels on the picture were an emergency fix as the caps on the original Turbo X wheels were broken (is this a sign of things to come?). And to the best of my knowledge, production of the Turbo X is slated for week 11 of 2008, i.e. March.
I, for one, am not as pessimistic about the car, which is why I ordered one in the first place. Sure, it ain’t an Audi S4, but be reasonable: it costs 25-30 grand less, and matches its 0-100 km/h sprint. The 10% premium over the standard FWD Aero is not that big a deal, sheesh – you get the XWD with eLSD, a nicer interior, a tweaked transmission, awesome body kit and great wheels. I seriously don’t see the big fuss about it.
So don’t hold your breath hoping to snap one up in fall for $7K off – they’ll be gone. The car costs under the base 9-3 convertible and is limited edition. With standard loyalty bonus and a nice GM Card downpayment (mine is maxed out already) this really is a lucrative deal.
Granted, though, from a pure bragging rights perspective it is disappointing the car did not reach the 300 bhp mark.
Beren: Swade is going to be away from his computer for quite some time now I think, so I’ll answer for him.
The wheels which were on the Turbo-X at the NAIAS were supposed to be temporary. The story is when the Turbo-X made its U.S. debut at the Boston Auto Show in late November someone had lost a couple of the center caps. Some very perceptive commenter here at TS pointed-out that on one side of the car the wheels had the center cap, on the other side they were missing.
Well, something happened to the wheels after the Boston Auto Show and Saab ordered replacements. Apparently the wheels didn’t arrive in time for the GM Style event so as you can see in this video, they threw some non-Turbo-X-exclusive wheels on there which, IMHO were neither as nice or as exclusive as the Turbo-X gunmetal-colored stylized 3-spokes (at least I THINK they’re supposed to represent three-spokes).
Swade asked about this and was told that the wheels which were ordered didn’t make it onto the car in time, then after the GM Style event a few days later Swade learned communication lines got crossed and nobody ever switched-out the wheels.
So don’t fret: your Turbo-X will still come with the exclusive wheels you saw at Frankfurt.
Kroum: I didn’t get the exact story, but I’m thinking someone stole a couple of the center caps off the Turbo-X for a souvenir at the Boston show, not that it’s a quality problem. At auto shows they have to take just about everything off the car that’s removable to make sure people don’t steal it. You’ll notice inside that the gear shift knob is always missing in show cars the public can sit in. I don’t think they would be able to leave the caps aside as it would be obvious something’s missing.
Grip, that’s quite funny indeed! People will be people. What use can those caps be to anyone! Souvenirs, perhaps?
“Of course they don’t tell you till afterword that you don’t actually get to go on the Road Atlanta course.”
-Steven
You don’t need to buy the car to know the class is at Road Atlanta but not on the road coarse, its available here:
http://www.saabusa.com/saabjsp/aero/
About Road Atlanta
“Driving exercises are not conducted on Road Atlanta’s road course.”
I see the Turbo X like the 60th Anniversary package. Its really a value bundle of some options that would be expensive if sold separately. If you price a 9-3 Aero with XWD and other features the Turbo X seems a value by comparison. With LSD and a tougher gearbox I’d go for the Turbo-X. Its like what the Viggen was to the NG900.
Turbo X debut in the fall, in showrooms in the spring, the following summer or fall the vanilla Aero XWD arrives and if we are lucky we’ll see the 2.0T with XWD inside of 12 months. In 3 months we’ll see a 9-1 concept. In 6-12 we’ll start to see concept 9-3 and 9-5 replacements. In 18-24 months we’ll see a 9-4x in production. In 24 months we’ll see if GM backed Coskata can deliver inexpensive cellulosic refined ethanol. in 24-36 months we’ll see new production 9-3′s and 9-5′s. Seems like there is alot going on.
On the downside I’m not sure if they will ever be able to produce something thats as fun to drive as an old 96 on a snowy road.
Gripen – The eLSD would help with handling. If the turboX goes into a corner and understeers, torque would be sent to the rear wheel which would cause it to oversteer. The same would go with oversteering. The XWD w/ eLSD in essence gives the Turbo X neutral handling.
You’re being too easy on saab by saying that the turbo X only needed 300 hp.
The turbo X is essentially their halo car, it should make at least the same hp/liter numbers that the 9-5 Aero or S60R did. That means that the turbo X should be making almost 60 hp more than they’re selling it with.
If saab wanted to sell a 280-300 hp turbo X, they should have given it the 2.0 direct injection ecotec. That would have at least made a statement about the potential of 4-cylinder mills. A turbo v6 that barely breaks the 100 hp/liter mark is not the kind of envelope-pushing turbo technology that I expect to see from a saab. Don’t even get me started about the 250 hp 2.8t aeros.
So enough of the 2.8t, I challenge saab to grow some balls and push 1 bar of boost through a 2.8T engine.
First, that was well written as usually Swade. Saab should thank you for that!
Quite many here complained about Saab being reveal Turbo X too early since there will be no production examples in the next three months or so. And it´s already some time since the Frankfurt show. For this reason it´s already somewhat forgotten when it´ll actually come at the dealers.
Sorry for bringing this up once again, but it seems that they´re making the same mistake as with TTiD. August ´07 dealers got information taht TTiD´s will come in around end of october/start of december. I for one ordered without testing and actually seeing the car (many thanks to Swade for praising it so much..
). I got the delivery date for week 45/46. That means 10 weeks waiting. Now it´s been 17 weeks and counting. Second delivery date was, and it´s now gone for good. At the moment I have no date when to expect the car to arrive. Some guys from Sweden say that it´ll be start of march! Means it´ll take more than half a year. From the dealer I heard that the car actually is already being made but it´s stuck at quality control.. This really makes me wonder what is wrong with Saab. 9-3 is not a new model, so what the h*** is wrong?!
They should´ve not take any orders before really knowing that they´re surely able to produce such car! At the moment I´m very frustrated, and so seems to be quite many. From the car-forums in Europe I´ve been reading similar comments. People are already started to cancel their delays. Not everyone could wait some unknown time to get their cars.
I´m not going to give up on this, but it´s very, I tell you, so very annoying to wait and especially when you don´t know for how long.. DOH!
Back to Turbo X. I fully agree Saab that 300bhp is not really needed. Think of it like this, if there were two choises 350Nm/320hp and 400Nm/280hp, which one would you choose? If you´ve driven Saab Turbo – you´d sure choose the latter. Higher hp values usyally give better 0-100kmh times, but how many times you actually need that? That´s where Hirsch comes in for those few.
400Nm at 2000rpm gives 112hp and 350Nm equals 98hp at 2000rpm. What rpm you usyally drive?
eLSD should also be very efficient on slippery conditions when going uphill etc. Typically Haldex II systems lost all the power on slipping wheels where other wheel was stationery because of no LSD. This would give big advantage over older Haldex AWD designs. Torsen and some other systems does it (limiting the slip ) automatically.
Predictive systems have already being used by some companies like Nissan, Mitsubishi and BMW so that is not actually new feature on a AWD system.
In my opinion Turbo X awesome car as far as the specs come and also it looks truly magnificent. The more I look at the pics the more I like it. It´s really great that Saab were to produce such model. It´s been some time already since the Viggen.
re: the question of 350Nm/320hp and 400Nm/280hp, that depends. The new GM 2.9L diesel will make 550Nm/250hp, so isn’t another reason not to make it 350/320 rather than 400/280 the fact that the parent company has a diesel that can make those numbers with 20% better fuel economy?
By comparing those two figures I was only trying to point out that 400/280 outperforms the other one in 90% occasions of driving. Only on track if you´d like to get best possible time and 0-100kmh / 0-400m runs it´s the hp´s that count. And actually it depends on gearing, like we´ve seen already some high torq diesels giving similar performance as petrol engine with higher hp value.
But okay, that was very much theoretizesing. Best option of course would´ve been 400Nm/320hp
It´s the d**n 2.8 liter engine that is not capable of giving more than 100hp/liter and still be reliable. There´s been talk about temperature problems and something else. I find it freaking funny that ancient 2.3T (B234/235R) is able to give more power, but with better mileage… Remember that 9000 Ecosport had 255hp and 350Nm at 1950 rpm. That was 16 years ago!
I wonder if it´s possible to use TTiD´s charging mechanic on a petrol turbo engine? Imagine twin turbo with DI on other goodies.
I mentioned it before but I really think the main reason it doesn’t have 300hp is because Saab didn’t upgrade other components that would be required to support that additional power such as the fueling system (injectors, etc.) and also because the turbocharger may be flow limited on the top end. If you look at the dyno chart its pretty flat (i.e. torque managed) in the mid-range but drops really sharply in the upper rpm’s. More than likely they recalibrated the Bosch engine management system on the V6 for additional boost but I bet no major mechanical changes were made. Time will tell but a comparison of part numbers would confirm this.
Even Hirsch is showing they are only able to get 275hp out of the 2.8T for ’08. If they do offer a bigger power upgrade kit for the Turbo X it will more than likely involve replacing additional engine components and won’t be a simple flash-only affair. If Saab could have done that I believe they would have for this car but even the high output 2.8L in the Vectra OPC/VRX performance variants hasn’t been able to push more power than what the XWD cars will have. I’m sure there will eventually be more power in later variants as Saab upgrades components to support more power, but for now they maximized available gains with what they already had.
On a side note I stopped by my tiny local Saab dealer and they were pretty happy that Saab sales went have went from two or three per month to four and then “jumped” to eight sales when the ’08 cars came out. One of those was a pre-order for a Turbo X last week. The sales manager was showing all the paperwork steps they had to do since it’s not officially available for order yet and they had to take a deposit and fax a written sales order back to Saab USA.
@35: Can some clarify the technical differences (vs. the marketing technojargon) between the “twin scroll” turbo that has separate inlets for each of the sides of the V-6 force feeding the current 9-3 2.8L Aero’s and the “it’s not really a twin turbo” turbo in the TTiD?
MarkoA, I’m pretty sure you could not. I remember reading somewhere that diesel turbos and gasoline turbos are constructed differently due to heat issues. I think diesel exhaust is cooler.
Just re-read my first comment (33) and scratch the “not”. I was trying to say it should be 350Nm/320hp rather than 400Nm/280hp because of the existence of the diesel (whether or not it ever becomes available), in addition to the headline hp number being higher.
Steven,
The TTID does have two separate turbos if I understand things correctly. It’s based on a new technology from Opel; the unique feature is that the turbos can be run sequentially or in parallel.
In other words, at low rpms the smaller turbo engages and runs on its own; as revs increase it helps spool up the larger turbo. At moderate rpms BOTH turbos run together, and then at higher rpms the small stops running and the large functions alone.
This differs from the twin-scroll setup, which is the “not really a twin turbo” system. It’s also different from a parallel system of two identical turbos, and from a sequential where two turbos alternate the workload.
That’ how I understand it anyway. Hope that helps.
Back to the 280/400 versus 320/350 argument, the problem is that a proper 2.8T tuned like a proper saab (aka engineered and tuned like the H engine) would make that 320-340 hp engine crank out ~450-490 ft-lbs of torque. That combo would have been a real “killer app” fr the brand and I’m sad that they were prevented from doing it.
Why do I say prevented?
Because many signs point to the turbo X being designed as a ~320 hp car, then getting nixed by the management. First off you have the rumors that speak of a 280-320 hp “black turbo”, and historically when a company lets a rumor like that get out the high number is always closer to what the final product ends up putting out. Second, the turbo X has a reinforced gearbox, and I don’t buy that it’s just because they deleted the 1st and 2nd gear torque limiter. I’d wager to guess that someone was planning and engineering the turbo X to roll off the showroom floor with 40 more horsepower than it currently has, and that someone higher up nixed that idea for whatever reason.
20-40 hp isn’t an inconsequential number, it would most likely be the difference between a car with 0-60 times in the mid 5′s the way the turbo X currently is, and a car with 0-60 times in the 4′s which would have put it in the same performance category as the S4, the M3, the old STI, the old EVO, and even the corvette. Add to that saab’s penchant for cars with real mid-range power and the car would have won comparison tests.
I just wish I knew why they decided to castrate the poor car, and how long it will be before someone releases a tune for it that pushes the 1 bar of boost that the car should have pushed in the first place.
OK, I found it, I think….
http://www.automotorsport.se/bigpix/2007/opel_twinturbo_skisss_stor.jpg
Alex – I’d wager that Saab is playing it safe when it comes to power.
The new XWD transmission with eLSD depends on clutches to transfer the torque to various axles. Too much torque could cause slippage, significantly reduce the life of the drivetrain, increase associated warranty claims, or be an expensive unit to service.
Until other manufacturers include the new XWD system in their vehicles, one can’t be certain of the limitations.
Perhaps Saab was limited by emission standards in certain markets thus had to make a Turbo X that conformed globally.
In terms of competition, I don’t think Saab designed the Turbo X to compete against the Corvette, Evo X, STi, etc… The only cars I can think of are the Audi S4 (340HP for $70K+ cdn) & the BMW 335xi (300HP for $52.5K+). Depending on the Turbo X’s price, it may just be a better value than those cars.
People should also keep in mind that the 2.8T and current 9-3 was designed for FWD and not necessarily AWD. It’ll be interesting to see what the future brings for the 9-3 Aero.
My conspiracy theory for Turbo X´s “limited” output is Money. Big dollars if you like.
I cannot think of any other reason why it (300+hp) was changed/cancelled, if it was cancelled.
Those 40 more horses would have probably needed several modifications and strengthened parts like intake, intake cam, probly valves, exhaus cam, valves, the exahust system, injectors, new turbo, different pistons for lower compression and who knows what to support this engine under the bonnet.
I know tuners do the “same” without any mechanical modifications, but that it totally different case.
Saab turbos have reputation of being robust, like 9000 turbo (Talladega, ´86 ) flat out 100 000km. That´s pretty impressive and to me, that is the way all turbos are designed to work. Full boost, as long as you want to floor it.
So, after all, being a limited run those mods would´ve probably cost way too much to justify. And on the other hand, the msrp starts with different numbers.
But that is only the way I see it. I would be more than happy to have 280/400 Turbo X. And do remember, it´s still quicker than many more powerful 4wd cars.
Turbo X is a future classic, no doubt. Nobody´s asking today why SPG didn´t have 185hp although it easily could.
Just as a quick comparison for those who still can’t see the value in a Turbo X.
2008 Audi S4
4.2 litre V8
344 bhp at 7000 rpm
410 Nm at 3500 rpm
0-60 mph in 5.5 sec.
Price: $74,200 CAD. Base is $70K, plus Convenience and technology packages (2K total – everything except the Bluetooth is standard equipment on the Turbo X), Carbon Fiber decorative inlays ($500), Rear side airbags ($500), Tire-pressure monitoring system ($350)
2008 Saab Turbo X
2.8 litre V6
280 bhp at 5500 rpm
400 Nm at 2150 rpm
0-60 mph in 5.6 sec.
Price: $50,000 CAD est., maybe $1-2K extra for memory seats et al.
Both cars are equipped with an all-wheel drive system, 6-speed manual or sentronic transmission and 18 inch wheels, no sat-nav assumed on either vehicle for this comparison (est. $2K extra). 0-60 times are almost the same, torque is the same… The only difference is the Turbo X costs $20-25K less.
How about vs Mazdaspeed6? That’s more comparable to me. The interior of the Audi is exquisite. How about vs the new STI hatchback? I think we need a spreadsheet.
Kroum: Hate to be picky, but the 0-60 of the TurboX is 5.4 secs. think the 5.6Sec figure comes from the 0-100KMH time which equates to 0-62MPH. So it’s even better on paper!
I must say though was seriously considering a nearly new S4 before the TurboX was announced. I ordered my TurboX in November.
Adam: a mate of mine traded his RX8 in for the Mazdaspeed6 a while back. He had the car for about a month before trading it in for a Nissan 350Z. His reasons being – it was dull to look at, the interior was cheap and plasticky, fuel economy was crap and the ride was uncomfortable.
Wasn’t the 0-60 on the Ms6 about 6.4 seconds or so anyway @250BHP? More akin to an Aero…
…He’s since got rid of the 350Z because it has REALLY bad fuel economy even though it was a fantastic car. He now drives a Merc C class, think it’s a 200Kompressor – nothing lively anyway. Think his wife got fed up with all the changes and told him to get a sensible car.
The Turbo X and the STi were designed for different age groups and different clientele. Also, the 2008 STi is not considered a luxury sport car.
IMO, I would not compare the Turbo X against a STi or Evo X MR.
Ooops, forgot to mention the S4′s got a much higher-revving Cockometer gauge.
Adam, I would not dismiss the ’08 9-3 interior – have you had the chance to sit in one, esp. an Aero with the premium leather package feels much, much better than the older 9-3s. To me, Audi’s interiors are exquisite, but I’d take the 9-3 any day. It was exactly the A4′s interior that put me off buying that car a few years ago: it sure feels luxurious, but not very driver-oriented IMO. I just did not feel right inside the Audi.
With apologies for the delay, happy to report that the original Turbo X wheels, including hub caps are back on the black beast currently on display at the Detroit auto show media and industry days. Still well in time for tomorrow night’s Charity Preview ($ 400 tickets, anyone?) and the regular public days opening this Saturday. Saab hopes to see you there!
Good stuff J.W.!!
Wow! That’s Mr. Vester’s (and first Saab employee’s) first post at TS. I know that Saab and GM employees have “lurked” here for years, but it’s nice to one come out of the woodwork. Thanks, Mr. Vester.
That’s 400 U.S. Dollars? In this economy? No thanks. Maybe you can get some BMW owners to pony-up that kind of money!
Kroum: and for your comparison, the Turbo-X might actually outperform the S4 on the slalom. You might remember that according to Saab’s internal XWD testing the 9-3 w/ XWD outperformed the best of the German and Japanese performers in the segment and even the Porsche 911 in the slalom course. That’s some serious bragging rights.
I’d LOVE to see The Stig take this thing around the Top Gear track to prove handling is just as important as raw horsepower.
SWADE!!! Please get in contact with BBC´s Jeremy Clarkson.. Or I will try too! I guess that a test of the Turbo X on British BBC´s TopGear would doo a world of good even in the US in sales to “Motorheads”. The show has got a big following all over the world. Saab Brittain or GM ought to lend them a Turbo X and let “The Stig have a go in it!” Jeremy was impressed with the 9-5 Aero Gen 2 for it´s engine performance, low down torque, seats etc.. but not with it´s handling round the track since it has got the fwd understear. Still it did pretty well round the track.. But times have changed and Saab could now be a winner over alot of competitors out there…
1985 Grip: What’s up with the economy?
5% NATIONAL unemployment rate.
4% Inflation rate
Even with today’s 300-point loss, the Dow Jones is still within 5% of the all-time record high.
It appears that the GDP increased about 6% in 2007 — it out stripped inflation.
How is this bad???
I believe that SoCal may be hurting a little, but other parts of the country are going great guns. Certainly, Bimmer and Lexus dealerships are not hurting for business, at any rate.
Wasn’t it the 911 Turbo they tested it against?
eggsngrits: all valid points, and I’m in no position to argue economy with you as I’m not all that familiar with it. All I know is what I’ve heard and the news services are all warning of “the R word”.
However, I will say that I don’t consider the Dow Jones a good indicator of “the economy” as a whole. A strong Dow Jones is great for all the rich people who have the extra money to invest, but for the common man who works for a living and lives “month-to-month” the performance of the Dow really doesn’t mean squat to me.
NineTwoX: I’m looking back on my notes from Andreas Anderson’s (GM’s XWD lead) presentation at the ’08 9³ media debut back in August in Washington, D.C. and I don’t see “turbo” noted after “911″ in my notes, unless I just failed to note it. Here’s what I have written:
“Benchmark against best Japanese and German competitors… Lateral acceleration… Porsche 911 also… 7.02 sec. 100.1 kph… beat all but 911 in exit speed and all in time”
Hi All,
Thanks for the info on the wheels. That’s great!
In terms of Audi – I’ve all caveat that I’m a 3rd gen VW/Audi driver – I switched from Audi to the Turbo-X.
In my opinion even in the S4 there is too much VW in the car to really justify the price. Plus the “bling” has crept in leaving the car lacking for the price you pay.
The 93 or Turbo-x really comes up against the A3 and the Saab wins I thin in terms of style, power, “fun factor”.
What I’m most anxious about is reliability and the dealer’s ability to “make it right”.
I spent a lot of time with local Saab people asking about my dealers – so I decided to “do it” and get the Turbo-X. We’ll see how it works out…I’m #19.
beren
Welcome to the “cult of Saab”, Beren. We’re so glad to have you.
I certainly hope Saab does everything to make you (a coveted “conquest” customer) feel you made the right decision.
You should also join your local Saab club for full enjoyment of your proud new purchase. I’m sure you’ll be a huge hit being probably the only member with a Turbo-X!
Regarding the economy – there is a GM press release today about new belt-tightening measures for 2008 – AutoBlog
The only reference to Saab was:
“GM will accelerate the alignment of its seven U.S. brands into four distinct dealer channels: Chevrolet, Saturn, Buick/Pontiac/GMC and Cadillac/Hummer/SAAB. By doing this, the company expects to enhance dealer profitability and over time facilitate more highly differentiated products and brands.”
CAD50000 for a TurboX!!! Are they insane, I can get a 335i cheaper than that!? And dont even get me started on lease rates.
Ill pick one up in September when they have 50 or so left unsold at a more realistically priced closer to CAD40000. Saab really needs to get their lease rates a lot lower of knock $5000 off of the base price of every Saab sold here in Canada to get better lease rates. I am really interested in a 328i Coupe at the moment – unfortunately.
The last of the economy stuff: grip, your employer has a significant stake in keeping stock pricew high. That’s a sign of good corporate performance, and it means that your employer will likely retain you and your peers as employees and possibly hire more.
Additionally, those rich people employ a number of people directly or indirectly.
Finally, financial institutions use equity gains to support new business growth with credit.
The stock market is perhaps the single best indicator to look at. It’s so fundamental that it’s the only economic indicator reported daily.
zippy: a 328i coupe!?!? Are you serious? Nobody wants a sports coupe!
eggs: so Ben Bernanke has it all wrong? Pay no attention to the mortgage crisis? Pay no attention to all the big-name financial institutions being sold to middle-eastern and Asian companies? Pay no attention to the >25% drop in new housing? Pay no attention to the steep decline in new housing permits? Pay no attention to the $150B “economic stimulus package” proposed today? Pay no attention to the consumer confidence index? Pay no attention to the fact that the price of a barrel of oil went from less than $30 when George Bush (and his fellow former oil man Vice President) took office 7 years ago to close to $100 a barrel now? Pay no attention to the fact that due to NAFTA thousands upon thousands of high-paying jobs have moved over the border while the American companies are rewarded with no-tariffs for products crossing between Mexico and the U.S.? Pay no attention to skyrocketing health insurance costs? Pay no attention to the fact that China owns so many U.S. federal bonds that if they were to sell they could destroy the U.S. economy? Pay no attention that the U.S. dollar is so devalued that Canada’s dollar is now worth more for the first time in like 30 years? Pay no attention to the federal deficit going to astronomical levels while the current supposed “Republican” administration (this should upset true Republicans more than anyone) spends like drunken sailors?
There are so many more indicators of an economy than how well the stock market is doing. Shoot, when the stock market is booming I see no shift whatsoever in my personal financial situation.
I just don’t see how anyone can claim that everything’s fine and rosy while looking at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, no offense, eggs.
@47: I just picked up a Turbo X brochure from my dealer today and the first page says “Thanks to ‘rightsizing,’ the 280 bhp, 24-vale, 2.8 V6 turbo engine has the characteristics of a V8 engine: 295 lbs-ft of torque and an acceleration of 0-62 mph in 5.7 seconds.” The back cover lists a print date of “November 2007″ in Sweden.
Regarding delivery time, the dealer said to expect my car to come in some time between late March (which I don’t expect) and late April (which I this sounds reasonable based supposed construction dates and trans-Atlantic shipping times).
I bet that the 280hp “rating” may have something to do with the CTS’ 306hp “rating”
Remember, Rick “Lets Circle The” Wagoner wants Cadillac to remain on top of the GM totem poll.
Grip: get a grip. The stock market isn’t everything, it’s just one number. You said that you competely dioscounted it. That’s what I disagree with — it certainly means much more than nothing.
As far as it not affecting you directly, you’ve simply not been with an employer acutely affected. As a dot com vet, let me tell you that when the stock market bubble burst, the money and the jobs were gone. If the stocks had remained high, companies would have had money to live.
Eggs: get a… eggs? Okay, that didn’t work out so well.
Actually, I was part of the tech boom (semiconductor manufacturing capital equipment) that was happening at the same time as the dot com boom and the bubble burst at the same time. What shuttered the company wasn’t the stock price, but the fact that they couldn’t get any more capital from venture capitalists to feed the massive necessary R&D. But bygones are bygones.
I’ve been off the site for over a week swamped in work related matters that prevented some comments. The topic on discounting/incentives to sell the Turbo X will not be determined by anyone other than the market forces. Despite the technical data making the Turbo X comparable with the A S4, the standard A4 Quattro is where the competition will come from irrespective of this being a much more inferior vehicel. The S4 is targeting the M3, CLK AMGs etc etc for which the Hirsch will be a comparative. Let’s don’t start that debacle again as we’ve had this many times before. I doubt that dealers will be able to stand still and offer no discounts at all especially if Audi’s fans are serious about the Turbo X and take a look at Saab. Aside from this Subaru Liberty will also offer serious competition with their GT offering which sells well below the Turbo X price.
Gripen – I wouldn’t say that the dollars are on par solely because the economy in the US is bad. The boom in Alberta has been fueling the Canadian market for a while. The more expensive the oil gets, the better we’ll do in Alberta.
Perhaps I was thinking of a Carerra 4S instead of the Turbo. I don’t see the point of a handling test if you’re not comparing apples to apples.
“Barry // Jan 18, 2008 at 12:23 pm
I bet that the 280hp “rating” may have something to do with the CTS’ 306hp “rating”
Remember, Rick “Lets Circle The” Wagoner wants Cadillac to remain on top of the GM totem poll.”
ding ding ding we have a winner here people
My personal theory though is that ~320-340hp HOT turbo X would have crept dangerously close to the corvette’s 0-60 numbers while beating the new CTS for the same money. This would lead to magazines choosing to feature turbo X’s in their comparison tests against the 335i, G37, etc instead of the slower CTS.
Since GM obviously spent more money on developing the CTS’s direct injection engine than on the entire 9-3 refresh, they just wouldn’t allow something like that to happen.
It’s still a crying shame no matter how any of us here look at it. I can’t wait to see a tuner push ~14-16 psi through a turbo X to see the kind of hp/torque, 0-60 and 1/4 numbers it would produce.
Barry: CTS may have 306hp, but peak torque is only 273 lb-ft at 5200 RPM. The Turbo 2.8L probably feel’s much more responsive during normal driving due to the fact it produces a nice flat curve and peaks so early. I am picking up a 2008 CTS tomorrow for a direct injection presentation, so I will have to see first hand and compare it to my 2007 SportCombi.
Geez guys, all this talk about the stock market and economy – that is depressing stuff. Remember, I live close to Cleveland – the foreclosure capital of the United States. The scent of unemployment drifts in from Michigan when we have a nice south-east wind. Thankfully Mitt Romney is now the president of Michigan and is saving the state.
Tedjs: Swade had a brush with Romney the day before the coronation in Michigan. He said he came within 3 feet of him at the NAIAS.
Beren wrote: “What I’m most anxious about is reliability and the dealer’s ability to “make it right”. ”
Once again.. Is there a difference in build quality in Saab cars for europe vs cars made for the US? Saab cars are rated as one of the absolute best in Sweden. Toyota and Subaru are withing grasp. VW/Audi are among the best but both Saab and Volvo beat them.
/Tompa
“..but both Saab and Volvo beat them.”
Could this be due high quality service? I thouhgt Volvo & Saab get´s best possible service around Sweden?
In Finland, Saab is not rated as high quality & reliability anymore. It used to be when 9000 was new and c900 was really popular. And that time C900 was build in Finland too.
IMHO, it´s the present 9-5 and 9-3 II first years that gave people the impression of lousy quality.
Well I for one hope that the Turbo-X is indeed underrated for the many reasons mentioned above, eventhough the average consumer probably would not know.
Though doesn’t anyone else think a time of 0-60 in 5.4secs is quite remarkable for a 280hp car?
It was the 911 Turbo MY07 (474 hp) that the Turbo X outperformed on the slalom/handling test.
UAM: thanks for the info. What was your source?
After thinking about it, is it really surprising that the Saab beat the Porsche on the slalom? I remember hearing/reading somewhere that rear-engined Porsches are notoriously tricky around the curves because the rear end wants to slide-out due to all the weight being back there. Is that true?
Gripen – The older porsches were notorious for that. However, with the addition of AWD and ESP, they improved drastically.
I’ll admit though, I haven’t had much driving experience with porsches aside from a 73 911T.
My 9-5 lease isn’t up until October. I am itching to buy a TurboX sooner, but there are a couple of things holding me back. 1) I want to wait for the European Delivery program to restart and 2) hopefully the Ice Experience. Does Saab plan on having the Turbo X for 2009 model year as well, or only 2008?
Michael Becker: a good point I didn’t think of. If I were going to buy a Turbo-X at MSRP I’d definitely insist on the European Delivery experience, but I don’t think they’re going to have that up and running again until late this year at the earliest (model-year 2009).
From everything I’ve read the Turbo-X will be limited to a run of 2000 and it’ll only be MY2008. If they were going to offer it in 2009 I doubt they’d be making eLSD available on the 2009 9³ Aero w/ XWD.
Michael, it’s a limited edition of 2000 vehicles worldwide for the 2008 model year. Assuming you’re in the US, there will be 600 available for the whole country and manufacturing will start in March.
Michael Becker: of course, if you wait until October you might not be able to get a Turbo-X, but you can get a MY09 9³ w/XWD and eLSD in whatever color you want, probably below MSRP. Then you can use that savings to buy the Hirsch leather interior kit and Hirsch performance upgrades to 300 bhp (if you can find someone to import them for you or just have them installed before you drop the car off in Europe)!
Of course, you won’t get the slightly uprated brakes or the carbon fiber interior accents but you can probably take European Delivery on it.
Swade had a brush with Mitt Romney? Did he get a picture of the guy? I would have shook his hand and asked him to say ‘BioPower’ – just for the fun of it.
Tompa: You know – the service end of this business tends to concern me, so you bring up a good point about the dealers and customers perception of quality. I had my first ‘free’ oil change done on my 9-3 and they left the oil about 1/2 quart low. How do you (only charge out on the repair order and) add 6 quarts of oil to an engine that requires 6.3? And they did not even fill out my maintenance booklet to record the oil change. Thankfully they did not need to rotate my tires – I can only imagine some dolt running my wheel bolts down with an air gun at full force
Think I will ask them for the oil and filter the next time and do it myself. Just like people that work in restaurants know what really goes on in a kitchen – I spent enough time in a service department to know some technicians do the least amount of work possible.
Michael Becker: Compared with the Aero XWD the Turbo X is lowered 10 mm and have an unique chassis setting. As Gripen said it has also updated brakes, eLSD as std, no torque limitation, etc.
UAM seems to speak with some authority here…hmmm…and not for the first time either….
Thank you kindly, UAM! Nice to hear from you. Your contributions are appreciated greatly here.
I think this car well be at least $48,000 loaded with all the options ( I think you will not be able to choose the options besides the transmission,) plus I think those exhaust tips look awful, kinda look like an Acura TL. Honestly I will just pick the Aero sedan XWD in 2009 with eLSD. I can build one with regular leather (premium leather is $1,500 more,) 6-speed manual, no nav, no un-necessary options and it will not cost more than $40,000. And with just a software upgrade and some simple bolt-on mods, that will push the Aero to 300+whp.