Trollhattan Saab – May, 2005
Jay Spenchian should really be pushing for GM to test the diesel-waters in the US for the 9-3 Sport Sedan, Sport Combi and Convertible. We’re right at the beginning of a new dawn for diesel and Saab is well positioned to take advantage.
Trollhattan Saab – Sept 2005:
I mentioned here the other day that Bob Lutz doesn’t think diesels are a certainty for the US, though I’m pretty certain that Saab’s competition will be introducing them when the legislation makes the commercial environment better suited. A failure on GM’s part to get this right will lead to a huge loss of marketshare. There’s been enough comments here and elsewhere to make this decision an apparent no-brainer. The old adage that American customers wouldn’t accept them because they’re scarred by bad memories of diesels is rightly squished by The AutoProphet when he says that “the myth would be dispelled the moment that modern diesel engine cars from Europe [were] demonstrated here.”
Edmunds – January 2006:
While diesel clearly isn’t the answer to everyone’s prayers, the U.S. market is unquestionably missing out on the modern diesel phenomenon. Bountiful torque, excellent refinement and a huge range are qualities well suited to the American highway. It is surely time to put away the prejudices of the 1970s and embrace the modern diesel engine.
SaabUSA – May 2006:
Before we make a strong – and expensive – push to make Saab diesels compliant with US regulations and bring it over here, we have to make sure that it is worth the effort for the relatively small brand that we are.
Currently, we are not convinced that such is the case.
Trollhattan Saab – April 2007:
I kept writing about this ad infinitum until I got a chance to discuss it with Saab USA. At that time I was told that the 1.9 diesel used in Europe wasn’t compliant with US emissions laws, and it’d be too expensive to undergo the compliance tests for Saab anyway. They didn’t see a big market for diesel at the time due to the higher cost of the fuel there and the added cost of manufacture. They were, however, open to reassessment in all of this.
Fast forward to today’s story, and we learn that this very same 1.9 litre diesel engine might be making a US debut in the Astra for Saturn. The only obstacle that’s mentioned in the article is the additional $1,000 or so that the oilburner would add to the price of the Astra. No mention is made of compliance.
Autoblog – May 2006:
Autoblog reported yesterday that diesel’s accounted for 22% of Volkswagen’s US sales in the first four months of 2006.
Trollhattan Saab – May 2006:
if Saab don’t prepare for the new US regulations on diesel and get these highly successful and well regarded cars to the US market – then they’ve got rocks in their heads.
Bob Lutz – September 2007
We have the gravest of doubts that diesels are the solution.
International Herald Tribune – January 2008
Oil prices rose above the symbolic level of $100 a barrel for the first time on Wednesday, a long-awaited milestone in an era of rapidly escalating energy demand.
Autoweek – January 2008:
BMW will begin selling two new performance-oriented diesel models in North America in 2008–the 335d sedan and X5 3.0sd SUV.
Both vehicles run a specially adapted version of BMW’s existing 3.0-liter inline six-cylinder common rail diesel engine. The diesel is fitted with an oxidation catalyst, particulate filter and a system to reduce nitric oxide outpt, which allows the powertrain to be sold in all 50 states.
——
Add to this the diesels to be offered by VW, Audi and Mercedes Benz in 2008 and you can see who read the wind.
Fortune favours the brave. These companies will reap the rewards for being early diesel adopters in the US. AutoProphet was right – the myth (of Americans fearing diesels due to bad memories) would be dispelled the moment that modern diesel engine cars from Europe [were] demonstrated here.
The Saab TTiD is a brilliant engine and should be sold in the US. I’d defy any US driver to have a crack at it and not enjoy it.
Where I live here in the US diesel is still much more expensive than premium gas. I would certainly pay more per gallon to get the mileage and power of the Saab TTiD but I just don’t know how many other people would.
I had a 1979 M-B 300D and LOVED IT! Earlier this year, I considered the only diesel in my price range (the VW Jetta) and could not bring myself to buy a VW. If SAAB had the TTiD here in the US right now, I would buy it! I understand GM’s reluctance to diesel since they single-handedly doomed diesel sales in the US by their horrid 80′s vehicles, but the MPG and performance of modern diesels will more than out weight that. I think they are making a HUGE mistake by not having SAAB lead the way. They could help off set the cost by making the TTiD available later on in the Saturn Aura.
Just another example of Saab USA showing up late to the dance. Bluetooth, E85, diesel, Hirsch, you name it and Saab USA won’t sell it.
The rationale is always that Saab is too small a brand to do these things. Of course, Audi and BMW were small brands in the US not so long ago. The difference is that they decided to bring-in some innovative products instead of whining and complaining…
@ Brushmore:
What I wish people realized is that the 5-10% additional cost of diesel fuel results in a 20% MPG increase. The marketing is going to have to reflect this math very simply to the public if it wants people to avoid that knee-jerk, “well, gas is $3.05 and diesel is $3.25, why pay more?” mentality.
(I just had this argument with my dad over Christmas, and he’s not a dumb guy, so ….)
I’m not saying GM has to give a TTiD to each brand, but give it to the brands that should be the ones to lead GM’s green charge (Saturn and Saab).
If Lutz and co. fail to bring over the TTiD and put it in the 9-3, they’ll be right where they are with just about everything else in the near-luxury game–two steps behind and blind. And the Germans will eclipse once again.
See Popular Mechanics – The case for diesel, it’s on their website. Plenty of mention of GM vehicles being powered by diesel in the US by 2009/10. it could be that Fiat, as supplier of Saab’s present diesels has no wish to develop diesels for the US. GM has moved to develop it’s new diesels with a new supplier. With petrol in the US heading for 4 dollars a gallon in 2008 it could be late to the party.
…I just spent Chrismas at the French south coast. To get around, I rented a Euro-Ford compact car with an Diesel engine.
The ubiquitous Diesel noise drove me almost crazy. I almost wanted to kick these car down the rocks into the sea and get a cultivated modern patrol car like VW Jetta TSI.
Furthermore, this invasive Diesel smell in the French cities where almost 70% of the cars are driven by these “celebrated” Diesel engines. It´s so strong, that it is impossible to smell one of the few patrol cars passing by the footpath.
Saab should get into quite patrol-hybrid technology or use directly injected patrol engine like VW.
And more, Diesel cars were the first cars, that introduced Turbo technology, before only known to us Saab freaks, to a broader public.
Everyone, who drove one of these non-turbo Diesel know what powerless means. Before VW had TDI they used SDI (non-turbo charged) to propell some of there cars. They really sucked.
Thankfully, Saab is now an almost “Turbo-brand”. What is missing is a high pressure turbo direct injected patrol engine: Silken-cultivated, powerful and economical as well as environmentally friendly! True, there now existing patrol engine are in these terms better than there Diesels. Only mpg-figures leave something to be desired. That´s why “TSI”.
This is a very timely posting. I recently submitted the same question to Saab Canada. Here is my email conversation with a Marketing Manager at Saab Canada:
I have heard so much about the amazing performance and efficiency of the TTiD models in other markets, I would like to know if Saab has any plan and timelines to bring the TTiD into North America – specifically to Canada.
For diesel options here, we have VW or VW. And from all reports at local dealerships, they can’t keep them on the shelves due to demand for the diesel engine. When will Saab step in and provide some choice in the diesel passenger vehicle market? I believe the Canadian marketplace is a lot more “diesel-friendly” than the American market and people are looking for these alternatives as fuel prices rise and with awareness rising of our carbon footprint in society. Certainly Saab has once again created an innovative, powerful and efficient engine with the TTiD and it deserves to be made available in far more markets.
Reply:
thanks for your mail. I do agree, Canada would be a very interesting market for the strong diesel lineup currently offered for Saab in Europe. However, having European engines certified, homologated and adapted for North America demands substantial resources, currently no timing as to when this could happen.
Best Regards
Mårten Wahlstedt
Marketing Manager – Saab
My reply/rebuttal:
Thanks very much for the followup. I don’t know the specifics of having engine variants approved for different markets, but I would guess that our standards are probably far less stringent than those of Europe where environmental regulations are far tighter. Certainly with the amount of research and development that has gone into providing diesels in Europe over the years, it wouldn’t take very many more changes to introduce them in Canada. It would be very reassuring to see Saab leading the way with the superior TTiD engine design in the North American market, rather than waiting to catch up with the other manufacturers after they have already introduced their models in this market. I also believe part of the problem lies within GM such that they do not recognize, maximize or effectively market the industry-leading technologies that Saab has to offer.
Secondly, in the past year, diesel Saabs have now become available for sale in Australia. With a population that is less than two thirds that of Canada (and a very small percentage of North America in total), it seems rather inconsistent to introduce diesels to Australia in the hopes of selling a couple thousand units there, while in North America the potential could be much larger. I would think that the return on investment for the substantial resources required to certify the diesels would be more quickly realized in the North American market than in a smaller market like Australia.
Can you shed some light on how these choices are made to certify and market diesels in smaller markets rather than in North America, or Canada specifically?
Marten’s reply:
interesting thoughts, in all honesty I not an expert on diesel homologation… However, to my understanding the US requirements are quite different from the European (will most likely be much more similar in a few years time) since US have very tough standards on particle emissions, whereas EU are more focused on Co2. To my knowledge Australian standards are European based.
Anyway, Saab diesels for North America is a great opportunity that I will keep pushing for.
________________________________
Based upon this information, I don’t see diesels anywhere near a Canadian dealership before MY2010. Very disappointing and it shows a distinct lack of vision on the part of both GM and Saab. I think I will reply with a link to this posting by Swade to give them some insight into the faultering and inconsistent steps GM and Saab have taken in the past few years in considering diesels for North America.
I still won’t buy a VW though.
Swade-
To your comment “I’d defy any US driver to have a crack at it and not enjoy it”, I would just like to say that many of us here would love the opportunity to do exactly not. Well, not to be defied by you, but to have a crack at a diesel.
I’ll go back to banging my head on the keyboard now.
keep fighting the good fight, Swade.
To be fair, North American diesel emissions standards are much, much stricter than EU standards. Diesel cars basically need to meet the same standards as any other car.
Diesels in Europe benefit from fuel subsidies (lower taxation) and relaxed emissions rules, especially for particulates and NOx.
The fact that it is hard to do does not mean that GM can’t do it. It just means that they won’t (or rather, they will wait for everybody else to do it first).
IIRC, VW used to advertise their diesels wagons in Canada by their mileage per fill-up while directly comparing them against a Toyota Corolla and a Honda Civic. At the time though, oil wasn’t pushing $100/barrel and people were not very concerned about economy.
IMO, Saab needs a new niche. Offering a diesel luxury sedan/wagon that gets the economy of an econobox could be it.
Ideally, I think Saab could be defined as the luxury brand that has the environmental choice (biofuel) and the economic choice (diesel).
My guess is that GM are sitting on the fence and who can blame them. Call it turning up to the party late if you want . I think GM’s answer to diesel right now is that they will enter the market in 2009 with a very potent 2.9 V6 with 250hp and 500nm Torque but if GM see a change in market perception then they can get a diesel on American soil with 3 months. Just don’t expect it to be Saab.
I would like a diesel to replace my 9-2X and I would love to stay in the Saab brand. I agree with Richard though, I won’t buy a VW.
Michael:
Although I’m not a Diesel expert, I think you should consider this…
Noise: Well, a small and cheap Ford is maybe not the best reference when thinking about a modern Diesel engine in a mid-sized premium car like Saab.
Smell: I don’t think 100% of the Diesel cars in France (or in any other country) are modern Diesel cars with common rail and particle filter. Judging modern Diesel cars by the smell of 10, 15, maybe 20 year old Diesel cars – AND all trucks and busses that generally always run on Diesel – seems kinda strange to me.
All SaabUSA top execs from DKE, Jay, and now Steve have been made aware of the strong case for US GM/Saab diesels. The old obselete 03 93 22TiD is easily the best Saab Ive ever owned (of 20?…OK the 67 96 and 89 CV are up there) and I cant believe its taking so long to finally start sounding like a good idea. Instead of wasting a lot of time and money on worthless V6s and Subarus(ie lost sales), this “project” needs front-burner status, despite what Jet Pilot Lutz thinks.
If the brand doesn’t sell any cars, it stayes a small brand. You become a big brand by selling a lot of cars of different type. This is something essential that SAAB USA has failed to understand…
Wasn’t it reported here recently that Saab is working on turbodiesel parallel hybrid powertrains? Wouldn’t the emissions be low enough from this engine to not require NOx filtering or urea injection to meet the most stringent emissions requirements?
From my RSS feeds tonight:
“General Motors has canceled plans to build a new advanced double overhead-cam V-8 for its luxury cars. The move means the future for Cadillacs V-8 car engines is unclear.”
Also, Saab US sales data:
December: -22.3%
2007: -10%
brushmore: consumers need to be educated to not simply look at the price on the big sign at the fuel station. They should figure “cost-per-mile” to figure the real cost of a particular fuel. For example, if the price of a gallon of E85 at the fuel station says “$2.80″ and the price of regular unleaded says “$3.20″ you’re going to think E85 is a good deal until you calculate that you’re paying more per-mile for the E85 due to its estimated 30% worse fuel economy. Same with diesel.
Does anyone know how much extra it would cost to throw a NOx filter and urea injection on a TTiD Saab? It can’t be THAT much more. I mean, people are obviously willing to pay $2500+ on XWD, so I’m sure they’d pay at least that for a diesel premium (which they’d probably earn back in fuel cost savings in only a few years). I mean, people pay a premium for hybrids in order to save money on fuel. Why not diesel?
I’d just like to see people running biodiesel (B100 being ideal), but beggars can’t be choosers. Even if they’re running B0 petro-diesel they’re cutting-down on petroleum usage.
Here is the Popular Mechanics “Case for Diesel” article from this month – Clean Diesel Cars
Page 2 shows a Caddy and an Saturn coming to the US with diesel options and page 3 has diagrams of emissions control systems (no cost breakdowns though Gripen)
I was just watching CNN and they reported that Toyota just surpassed Ford as the world’s #2 automaker (I thought they had already previously done that…) largely on the strength of their hybrid technology now that the price of oil has been rising.
The funny thing is that GM has been watching Toyota closing-in in their rear-view mirror not realizing all along that diesel SO trumps hybrid technology. Imagine GM making a huge push for clean diesel technology in the U.S. and they can advertise how much better fuel economy and power you get from a diesel than a hybrid. Who would buy a hybrid?
Diesel could well be GM’s best weapon against Toyota yet they seem reluctant to use it. Toyota had to take a loss on every first-gen Prius they sold in order to gain market share. That’s now paying-off as they’re the world’s undisputed hybrid leader. Why doesn’t GM take a slight loss on every diesel sold in the U.S. to gain market share (and thus take it away from Toyota) in the short-term? Economies of scale will likely bring down the cost of manufacturing a diesel in the long-term.
I keep reading, both at Autobloggreen and now Popular Mechanics that the VM Motori 2.9-liter direct-injected V6 diesel engine found in the European 2008 Cadillac CTS will be coming to the U.S., but I have not yet read how they intend to comply with 50-state emissions requirements. The German diesels (VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes) all use Daimler’s BLUETEC NOx emissions reduction technology to meet the requirements. Has VM Motori or GM licensed the BLUETEC technology from Daimler?
I keep reading about “clean diesel” (as the Popular Mechanics article linked to above calls the Cadillac engine), but I thought that previously simply meant the use of Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) diesel fuel, which has become much more ubiquitous in the U.S. since last year. “Clean diesel” still doesn’t address the issue of PM and NOx emissions requirements, which are far more stringent in the U.S. than in Europe, especially in California and other progressive states.
Saab was so concerned about the number of their U.S. owners leaving the brand to buy an SUV that Saab began offering the 9⁷X. Is Saab concerned about the number of U.S. owners who will leave the brand for one of the attractive diesels being offered by their competitors in a few years? If I weren’t such a Saab die-hard I’d be seriously looking at that diesel Audi A4…
On Top Gear Jeremy Clarkson drove a diesel Audi A8 Quattro (not exactly the most fuel-efficient diesel car out there considering its weight, the weight of the AWD system, and 4.2-liter turbodiesel engine that pushes it from 0 to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds) 800 miles from London, England to Edinburgh, Scotland and back on a single tank (19.8 gallons) of diesel fuel.
Lastly, regarding that PopMech article: it’s not unusual to see a gasoline-powered Saab still chugging along at 250,000 miles either, a testament to the strength of their manufacture!
Poor old Saab USA. The lights are on but no-one’s home.
PT: in defense of Saab USA I don’t think the decision to not bring the TTiD to North America is theirs to make. It’s a greater GM thing. I assume Saab USA would have to convince Saab global to convince GM Europe to convince GM corporate to allocate funding to develop a system which would allow the TTiD to meet 50-state emissions requirements. The system doesn’t do so “off the shelf”.
If Saab USA were to order a bunch of TTiD cars as-is they could only sell them in 45 states, not including the two most populous states in the union (California and New York). Then in 2010 I believe the federal emissions requirements for diesels are changing again, so it might not even meet the standards in those 45 states.
It’d cost Saab a lot of money to modify TTiDs for sale in the U.S., money I’m sure they’ve not been allocated by GM. It’d be more worth GM’s while to get an entire “family” of engines across its various marques to meet 50-state emissions requirements. If Saab could share an engine with Cadillac and Saturn that would be more bang for GM’s buck.
If the VM Motori 2.9-liter V6 diesel supposedly destined for U.S. sale in the 2009 Cadillac complies I’d expect to see that engine offered in the next-gen Saab 9⁵ the following year.
I’m surprised that so many execs with Business and Economics degrees can be so completely and utterly moronic.
Thanks, Swade, for putting up the direct quotes- it sheds light on the topic in the perfect way. Thank goodness you know what you’re talking about…and it clearly shows just how screwed up the priorities are at GM. It’s pathetic, really.
ARE YOU LISTENING GM?? BRING THE TTID OVER, AND I WILL BUY ONE EVEN IF IT KILLS ME. No, really! I swear!
Gosh friggin’ dang sons-a-biz-natches beancounter and board member morons!!!! Don’t you GET IT?!?!
I’m sorry, but this has me very upset. You couldn’t tell, could you?
We do have a refinery issue in the USA, as in not enough. So an increase in diesel usage will result in higher prices. Unless diesel prices come down low enough to off-set the higher price of the diesel option and diesel fuel, the take rate will be low.
An absolute shame and a lost opportunity for GM. Excuses are easy to make, leadership and real innovative efforts much harder. As per usual, GM is taking the easy road. To the execs at GM I say this: Get your heads out of your rear ends and give more decision making power to the Swedes – they won’t dissapoint. Ford has done a much better job with Volvo than GM has done with Saab. I drove a Toyota Corolla 5 door hatch in europe last year, and I didn’t even know it was a diesel until I got to the gas station to fill up after 900kms of driving (they didn’t tell me it was a diesel). I also drove a fantastic Fiat Bravo 4cyl diesel in October in Italy and was thoroughly impressed. North Americans are missing out and I just wish that GM would realize that even the not so progressive americans are realizing that progressive and efficient cars are the way of the future. At least bring these cars to Canada. MB realized that the Smart Car would sell here so they brought it over. Now, after stunning sales in Canada, it is being introduced to the American market. Maybe we can be the testing ground. By the way, the Smart Car sold here was until this year a 1.3 diesel. Sorry for the angry rant but it really pisses me off. Part of it though is that I know that if I asked 95% of the people that I know if they would want a diesel they couldn’t care less about it…they just want their easy to drive, shitty performing automatic shifting cars to have cup holders. UHHHHHH!!!!
At least Saab still offers manual shift cars – Thank God.
Gripen,
I appreciate & accept your defence of Saab USA but you must also admit that despite all this, they are just plain missing the boat. I agree that its part of GMs approach but this is not an excuse, just the reason.
To me, this situation epitomises the US-centric approach that GM has taken for so long even though they run a global business. I think RIck Wagoner is a clever guy but to me, developing Saab within GM looks like trying to win the Americas Cup with the USS Nimitz.
Diesels stink !! Diesels with active filters stink too. Diesels with active filters warmed to working temperature stink a little less, just enough to pass emission control.
The more efficient the diesel engine is the more vulnerable to fuel quality. Its not uncommon in our parts for diesel BMW owners with less than 150k km to caugh up over 2000 EUR for set of 6 injectors. Biodiesel in such cars ? Forget it if its not filtered and therefore more costly than E85. Yes, the old smoking non-aspirated diesels could virtualy ‘burn cats’ and still run for hundreds of thousand kilometers…
But people will always fall for money traps like advertised consumption and marketed cleanness.
Until you drive a lot and for long enough (to warm up the engine and active filter), then your diesel purchase is not money efficient and clean .
But don’t worry with the comming of engines like 125bhp 1.4 TFSI the maintenance cost difference will get equal … viva la emission revolution