As a companion piece to Swade’s excellent summary of the prevailing though on V-8 development for Saabs, I offer an alternative view.
Despite my comments providing an answer to Ivan’s comments, I’m not totally in favor of a Saab V-8. I’m quite undecided, actually. My point was simply this: if Saab truly wants to challenge BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, Audi or even Volkswagen on a technological level, a V-8 is a must. Why? Because even because it shouldn’t make a difference for most drivers, it does make a difference. Obviously, it does or these companies wouldn’t make the cars that they make. Three or four of them even exceed eight cylinders and go for ten- and twelve-cylinder models.
Why do they go to these lengths, even though these cars make up a small portion of their total unit sales (perhaps excluding Jaguar, where their heritage is built on such powerplants)?
The answer: it works. At some level, it works.
Including more cylinders brings with it smoother operation, a broader, wider power band and more low-end torque. Especially when accompanied by larger displacement.
However, Ivan (MusX) is right: these differences really shouldn’tmatter to most drivers. Even in the US (or Canada or Australia?), where our distances are much greater and our cities are new enough to be largely built for cars. However, they are better or they wouldn’t be built and they wouldn’t even be under consideration by the accomplished engineers at BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW and Jaguar.
I liken it to this: certainly, for most consumers, a great sirloin steak should suffice. But people still pay a premium for filet mignon. Likewise, Budweiser (US) or Maes beer is good enough, but Pilsner Urquel is a great deal better. That is, it’s a luxury that people are willing to pay for because it isbetter,
Call it marketing fluff if you like, but it sells vehicles.
Additionally, with larger, smoother engines, there are several more opportunities for motor sport participation, which is a proven marketing boon.
So, I’m hopefull that Saab considers the improvements that a V-8 brings to the table with care, but I hope that they give it a good look. When you start ignoring technologies simply because of some long-worn dogma, you start to lose your technological edge in important ways. Consider the famous story of the Swiss watchmaking industry. We don’t want Saab to go down that path, do we?
Very well written. That was basically my thought, as well. And because the competitors keep stepping it up a notch, I think Saab needs to jump a generation forward and offer what WOULD HAVE been the 4-cyl Aero performancde at the base level. Like the 9-5 currently is. Then have the V-8 as the Aero and maybe V-6 with lots of power but luxury ride(like Arc/SE)
Very well written. That was basically my thought, as well. And because the competitors keep stepping it up a notch, I think Saab needs to jump a generation forward and offer what WOULD HAVE been the 4-cyl Aero performancde at the base level. Like the 9-5 currently is. Then have the V-8 as the Aero and maybe V-6 with lots of power but luxury ride(like Arc/SE) or even a V-9 model called Aero, if you will, and an Aero sport or with the xxxxx package(whatever you want to call it, like the M package on the old 540i)
That’s pretty much my reasoning, too.
A lot of people on here talk like Saab is either not going to offer any V8s at all, or suddenly double the cylinders on all of their cars.
It would be one engine on one model that most of you guys aren’t going to buy anyway!
I mean, this company has pondered V8s three or four times in the past, and has always decided against them because they didn’t really need them. I think that now, maybe they do, and if they ponder them again, maybe they’ll decide to use one.
Jesus, this whole debate is like when Nintendo decided to cel-shade a Zelda game. It’s not worse, it’s just different!
“Including more cylinders brings with it smoother operation, a broader, wider power band and more low-end torque. Especially when accompanied by larger displacement.”
This is exactly the reason you get a V8 in a Ford F250 truck. A vehicle designed to haul hogs to market.
I would recommend Saab forget the V8 and instead start an advertising campaign that paints sedans with V8′s as being poorly designed, out of date, and vulgar. Saab needs to start teaching in their advertising. I just saw a full page Saab ad in the USA Today newspaper and as usual it was blissful nothingness.
Until a few months ago I had two V8′s in our household. I deliberately dumped both of them and unless I need to tow something, I see no reason to ever own a V8 again.
All things considered, V6s in Saabs have proven to be a very marginal advance (techs the world over would probably say a waste) since the 90s. V8s in a world where $90+ oil is a reality, as well as a move in general to find ways to reduce emissions and use the least amount of power to move our collective butts around will make these engines obselete.
Its all about power/weight ratio. Lighter cars and lighter engines go a long way to satisfy this “need for crazy acceleration”. This is partly what Saab used to be about. If ya wanna see a V8, go check out a Cadillac with a Northstar…youll get over it quickly . It took me less than a mile.
If anything, there is a beauty in five cylinders, eliminating the weight, vibration and complexity of balance shafts and chains in the current four cylinders and turning that into usable power in a package that can be the same size. This brings 300+ hp with 2.5 liters into range.
^Heheh….. a.k.a. Volvo S60 R
Why not just weld two Aero motors together? There have been precedents in Europe and Japan of major manufacturers who spliced their existing inline 4 and 5′s into impressive V8′s and V10′s. In the case of Saab, you’d get a twin-turbo 4.6 liter monster of a V8 that pumps out 520hp. Totally do-able.
But in the car biz (at least here in North America) sadly, perception is reality. Despite its amazing abilities and reputation as a “driver’s car,” the Porsche 944/968 was always the red-headed stepchild because the cars had “only” 4 cylinders (nevermind the 944 turbo could outhustle its contemporary V8 Corvette competition). The key to the future simply has to be smaller, more efficient engines– look what VW is doing in Europe (things like twin supercharging 1.4 liter inline 4′s), and that’s where Saab and GM really need to go. But if they want conquest sales in the Americas in the short term– and GM is all about the short term– here we go with a V8 9-5. And one less car on my wishlist.
Grackle: it’s already been done — check here. EnG
Unless SAAB can do V8s with fuel economy approaching that of BMW V8s (similar to GM V6) they should forget it.
This is a narrow market and unless they can compete on price and economy i think their better off dropping the idea.
I’m a broken record with this, but it again comes down to what Saab is going to be.
If an Audi/BMW/Infiniti competitor, then they need the V-8. I’d rather not see that, but it appears that may be the direction.
If a VW/Subaru/Acura competitor, then no V-8 needed. I think this is more authentic and makes more sense for a company whose sister company (brother company?) is Caddy.
This is the since SAAB can’t do anything inovative they should do what everyone else does tangent.
If safety, performance and economy are three criteria that you are trying to satisfy then the V8 is the wrong answer.
From a safety point of view putting a V8 in the engine compartment is taking space away from your crumple zone.
High displacement in a small area is how a V8 achieves performance. However the added wieght and complexity of camming two cylinder banks and overcoming a V8′s inherent imbalance make it inferior to an I6 litre for litre in performance and efficiency.
If SAAB could develop a transvere I6, like Volvo’s SI6, they would have a car with plenty of power, smoother and more efficient than a V6 or V8 and with a larger forward crumple zone than a V6 or V8.
I agree. SAAB should have a V8 in the next gen 9-5, and 9-4X (9-6X?) Crossover, but keep it small! Perhaps below 4 liter, but of course, with a turbo! No SAAB should be without turbo in the future! Thus, you get good mileage, but the same power as a 4 liter and more torque. Way to go.
Interesting to see that the answer to the main question is actually what they say in Germany… Jein; yes and no.
Once Saab is strong enough to dominate in thier own field then they will have to attract (steal) customers from other brands.
And because of that, a Saab has to be price driven.
A few weeks ago when we were commenting on the TurboX the car was compared to the BMW 330i and the Audi 3.2 Quattro. This was all based on power output and when you start looking at the prices the TurboX just doesn’t add up. Thousands of dollars more expensive and it still doesn’t have the interior to compete.
The problem is the TurboX isn’t in that segment. ignore horse power and all of a sudden the TurboX leans more toward the S4 and 335i. You can place the the TurboX above the S4 but not as good as the 335i in performance. (interesting to see two 6-cylinder engines out perfom a V8). But that’s what ‘right sizing’ means doesn’t it? In this segment the TurboX starts to make sense as a good alternative. As it’s the cheapest of all there are sacrifices in materials but ‘there’s no such thing as a free meal’ right?
The other point I mentioned in comments was that Saab could price themselves out of the market. We accept Saab for what it is and in general Saab does work at what they do right now But could Saab make a $100,000 car (AeroX anyone)?
Out of the 4-5000 people who visit trollhattansaab everyday, could 10% of you afford to buy such a car; new with no discount on offer? Then add other factors such as accepting the quality compared to Porsche, Aston Martin, Bentley, etc. So now we have the situation put into perspective. Saab are NOT a luxury car manufacturer, never will be and never would want to be either. But as a niche brand they are almost just as exclusive as which creates the problem of being alternative enough, with the right level of quality for the right price.
It’s not traditional Saab ethics but in a bid to compete and attract customers away from the likes of Audi, Saab needs a V8 in the 9-5. Bare in mind that this will be turbo charged, running on Bio-ethanol with probably some hybrid element the car will not be cheap and at around 70 or $80,000 would Saab actually price themselves out the market?
I personally think quite likely.
But given the fact that a lot of sales ride off the back of such ‘halo’ cars like the RS6 and AMG blah blah blah. Saab having thier own car could attract a new breed of customer.
Great comments. Not that far off from mine. I’ll post another snippet on this subject in the very near future. EnG
I didn’t quite get the Swiss watch analogy.
Which one is the V8 supposed to be, the quartz watch or the cuckoo one ?
Quartz watch. EnG
I think Adam nailed it. Saab needs to decide if they are competing against Audi/BMW/Infiniti or VW/Subaru/Acura. If they choose the former then Saab is doomed.
Wow an Ethanol powered V8, gobs of power and poor efficiency.
So much for right sizing ethanol power plants. Remember ethanol to petrol ethanol is higher octane lower potential energy.
Ethanol is a perfect example of an are were SAAB could be innovative. Think of a 9-5 replacement that has a 2.8l I6 that runs ethanol or petrol. Hopefully burning petro they could get better milage than the current 2.8v6, and on ethanol perhaps 320, 340bhp.
Such a configuration could be justified to long time SAAB enthusiasts like myself (since the two stroke). And hopefully could be made appealing to people who have grown tired of feeding 4 and 5l teutonic sedans.
Remember folks higher energy prices, global warming. By the time GM spends a lot of money developing the SAAB Lucerne BMW will have already flooded the market with the I6 diesels and the journalist will just cut and paste from their old 9-5 reviews “outdated.”
The main problem with a V8 Saab is that we all end-up paying for it. The car needs to be bigger and heavier than it should be just to fit an engine that no one will want, development money gets squandered on a useless project, and things that need to get done loose-out.
I am still not convinced that anything good has come from putting V6′s in Saabs, let alone a V8. As we all read a few days ago, Saab makes a 2.0l four that is just as powerful as the current V6, but it’s going into Chevy’s in a misguided attempt to keep Saab “premium.”
I think that Saab should go totally in the opposite direction: offer a 210 hp 1.5l direct-injection turbo four with the same performance as the 2.0T. The Aero version can then have a 2.0 with the power of the V6.
That would leave the new 9-5 with a 300+ hp 2.3 four. The last thing it needs is a hundred more pounds just behind the rad.
There are a lot of internet pundits that will tell you that “they would buy a (insert product name) if only it had a (insert random feature).” They wouldn’t.
Those of you that think that Saab needs a V8 should look-up the Passat W8. That car was a monumental flop and a huge waste of resources. VW can afford to make that kind of mistake once in a while. Saab can’t.
Well, SAAB did experiment with a low weigh aluminium block V8 in a 9-5 (see http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=269&a=45409 ). The problem was the AC didn’t fit. The reason for a V8 was pureley commercial. A V8 was judged necessary for the US market even if there is no real need for it.